What is it with the directness of the Dutch, not really all that worried about offending people?? Not for them, the diplomatic way of talking of the English. I have to remind myself that not all Dutch people are the same and that there are those that are, shall we say, a bit more normal and more of a friendly disposition.
I have never lived in Holland but my family comes from there. I'm sometimes not really sure about just how Dutch I really am even if my passport suggests I am. Most of my life I've lived in Canada, France or the UK and have been to Holland but only to see family. I work in customer service in the UK for a major household name and make use of the fact I can speak Dutch to work with their Dutch market. The more of the Dutch directness I experience, the more alienated I feel from what is afterall the country where all my family comes from...
The Dutch are direct, just like Germans, Swiss Germans & Austrians. It's a very 'Germanic' thing. Plus the fact that so many Dutch are very immature, they tend to speak without ever engaging the brain.
DutchUncle said:
It has religious roots too. http://crossroadsmag.eu/2009/02/calvinism/
Has the writer of that article ever been anywhere south of the great rivers?
DutchUncle said:
shops close on Sundays
And that is typical calvinistic? Shops close (or until recently closed) more or less everywhere on Sundays in Europe. Good luck finding a shop open on Sundays in catholic Belgium or Germany.
DutchUncle said: the lecturer noted, “shops close on Sundays; a reminder of the punishment awaiting those who are sinful and enjoy life a little too much.”
Huh? Shops are closed on the sabbath to respect the Lord's day; the day of rest. That's always been the reason. A strong indication that this lecturer doesn't have a clue.
Oh no, not a religious fruit-cake! The so-called lord doesn't exist, and the sabbath is all make believe! just one big fairy tale I'm afraid. 
monkeynuts said:
I blame the parents. If you aren't taught basic manners as a small child, then you are forever at a disadvantage as an adult.
Oh what a standard 'English' 'Daily Mail reader' type response - all fault for everything everywhere is the fault of the parent. *rolls eyes*
You seriously need to think about that Monkeygirl, because unless you are completely identical in every way to each of your siblings, or your cousins, then you're going to have to consider you might just be wrong and that individual elements that aren't down to upbringing and are down to individual experience come into play in shaping a child/teenager/adult. At what age did you start to rebel against your parents wishes, or are you the only person on earth never to have done so? Your parents are not the only ones to have shaped who you are today, thus your soundbite is severely flawed.
Remember also that manners are taught according to where you grow up. The Dutch probably think you're incredibly rude if you don't greet them all when you walk into a doctors waiting room - because thats how THEY work and WE don't. I was taught that eating with ones elbows on the table was incredibly rude, as was leaving the dining table without asking permission, but hey, that makes 99% of all people these days incredibly rude (but it doesn't bother me - I don't sweat the small stuff).
osita said:
monkeynuts said:
I blame the parents. If you aren't taught basic manners as a small child, then you are forever at a disadvantage as an adult.Oh what a standard 'English' 'Daily Mail reader' type response - all fault for everything everywhere is the fault of the parent. *rolls eyes*
You seriously need to think about that Monkeygirl, because unless you are completely identical in every way to each of your siblings, or your cousins, then you're going to have to consider you might just be wrong and that individual elements that aren't down to upbringing and are down to individual experience come into play in shaping a child/teenager/adult. At what age did you start to rebel against your parents wishes, or are you the only person on earth never to have done so? Your parents are not the only ones to have shaped who you are today, thus your soundbite is severely flawed.
Remember also that manners are taught according to where you grow up. The Dutch probably think you're incredibly rude if you don't greet them all when you walk into a doctors waiting room - because thats how THEY work and WE don't. I was taught that eating with ones elbows on the table was incredibly rude, as was leaving the dining table without asking permission, but hey, that makes 99% of all people these days incredibly rude (but it doesn't bother me - I don't sweat the small stuff).
Oh dear. What a huge over-reaction. Me thinks guilt maybe? Are YOUR kids are out of control and rude and you don't want to take responsibility? Whatever your problem is please don't dump it on my doorstep as I don't want or need it.
ok not sure i feel that any Dutch are Direct:
in my personal experience the Dutch i encounter are Vague at Best, to the standards i have grown up with they are Extremely rude, Staring is common place can we all say rubbernecking, Very literally bumping into folks in the Supermarket/Grocery store is the norm, forget the idea of waiting your turn they will reach and grab directly in front of you with no remorse or any pathetic attempt at an excuse me;
then there are Customer Service folks who Know NOTHING they Always need to get a colleague then they tell you that most things are Not Possible - seeing as how limited their knowledge is i have truely come to believe for the Dutch it is not possible.
So not seen any directness just alot of rude behaviour and complete lack of skills and/or knowledge. Really do find most dutch a pathetic waste of time and space.
is that direct enough?
philly_girl said:
ok not sure i feel that any Dutch are Direct:
in my personal experience the Dutch i encounter are Vague at Best, to the standards i have grown up with they are Extremely rude, Staring is common place can we all say rubbernecking, Very literally bumping into folks in the Supermarket/Grocery store is the norm, forget the idea of waiting your turn they will reach and grab directly in front of you with no remorse or any pathetic attempt at an excuse me;
then there are Customer Service folks who Know NOTHING they Always need to get a colleague then they tell you that most things are Not Possible - seeing as how limited their knowledge is i have truely come to believe for the Dutch it is not possible.
So not seen any directness just alot of rude behaviour and complete lack of skills and/or knowledge. Really do find most dutch a pathetic waste of time and space.
is that direct enough?
New to Expatica... please allow first day enthusiasm to this topic...
What I don't get is the double standard of directness. I am quite aware that in the US directness is easy to find. However, when someone is direct with us we are not shocked and horrified. I don't find that true here. To me it's seems a more 'do as I say, not as I do.'
I live in a town where certain lunch places are popular. And in Europe it's less 'frowned' upon to take a big seat for yourself. I lived in NYC for several years and doing that is sacrilege and I never did it when I lived in other European cities.
On one occasion I was seated at a table for 4 as I waited for my 3 friends coming my car to arrive. I was not asked when 3 women began to take these seats. I quickly said, "I am waiting for 3 friends who are parking." And one of the women looked at me as if I was lying. "If you want to sit here until they arrive, it's fine but they texted me and they will walk in any minute."
Cold stares; no replies.
My friends walked in. And I turned and smiled uncomfortably (embarrassed for them). Suddenly, in a raised tone, "Okay, okay, we heard you -- your friends are coming!"
How bizarre is that??!!!!
I find this Dutch directness more in the way Dutch cyclists ride their bikes without a care in the world what's happening around them, as if they're in a bubble and no one can hurt them more than anything else. I don't know what it is about the cyclists in this country, but they have this very unsafe habit of just cycling out of a side road into a main road without looking or even caring what may or may not be coming. I had it a few days ago, again, driving down a not particularly busy road when I saw this young woman with another young woman sitting on the front bike rack coming out of a side road as I was coming up to it. Both of them not even looking what was coming they came out right in front of me! Shocked, I braked and pulled to the middle of the road and as I slowly passed them gave them a dirty look with a few expletives. And they just laughed at me! Can't understand how little they must think of their lives that they put them in such jeopardy! These things happen so often here, another reason why I have a web-cam in the car, to record it all, should I need evidence.
Actually, I think I may put the clip on YouTube...
monkeynuts said:
Oh dear. What a huge over-reaction. Me thinks guilt maybe? Are YOUR kids are out of control and rude and you don't want to take responsibility? Whatever your problem is please don't dump it on my doorstep as I don't want or need it.
I have no problems. I'd have to care about your opinion to be a problem. However, as we both know, your only experience of parenting is watching the street from behind your twitching curtain, and my kids are so polite that the invitations come more from classmates' mothers who hope their influence will somehow rub off on their own :) You're an empty vessel, monkeynuts (finish the saying off at leisure)
philly_girl said:
ok not sure i feel that any Dutch are Direct:
in my personal experience the Dutch i encounter are Vague at Best, to the standards i have grown up with they are Extremely rude, Staring is common place can we all say rubbernecking, Very literally bumping into folks in the Supermarket/Grocery store is the norm, forget the idea of waiting your turn they will reach and grab directly in front of you with no remorse or any pathetic attempt at an excuse me;
then there are Customer Service folks who Know NOTHING they Always need to get a colleague then they tell you that most things are Not Possible - seeing as how limited their knowledge is i have truely come to believe for the Dutch it is not possible.
So not seen any directness just alot of rude behaviour and complete lack of skills and/or knowledge. Really do find most dutch a pathetic waste of time and space.
is that direct enough?
I just recently experienced the most blatant cutting in line from a Dutch person.
I put my stuff down on the counter, waiting for the cashier to finish the person before me.
There was no place for my basket so I walked to the next register where there were a stack. Mind you it is literally one step over so I was always in sight and you could barely consider me as having walked away. It was 2 seconds and with my back turned, the woman behind me just put all her stuff in front of my pile. I couldn't believe it. I just reacted and said what are you doing? She knew that she was completely wrong. She didn't even pretend to be surprised or act like she didn't understand. She just grabbed her stuff and put it behind my stuff. MY GOD! There is no sense of decorum. If this is a function of directness and calvinism, they have got it all wrong and I pray I am never on a sinking ship with them because they would surely step on you as you don't exist.
And forget Customer Service, they only repeat the rules like automatons. That's why they are vague. They don't even understand what they are doing. What a bleek existence. If not for the 30% ruling, I would have been out of here already as they certainly took their pound of flesh from my hard work.
fortuner said:
I find this Dutch directness more in the way Dutch cyclists ride their bikes without a care in the world what's happening around them, as if they're in a bubble and no one can hurt them more than anything else. I don't know what it is about the cyclists in this country, but they have this very unsafe habit of just cycling out of a side road into a main road without looking or even caring what may or may not be coming. I had it a few days ago, again, driving down a not particularly busy road when I saw this young woman with another young woman sitting on the front bike rack coming out of a side road as I was coming up to it. Both of them not even looking what was coming they came out right in front of me! Shocked, I braked and pulled to the middle of the road and as I slowly passed them gave them a dirty look with a few expletives. And they just laughed at me! Can't understand how little they must think of their lives that they put them in such jeopardy! These things happen so often here, another reason why I have a web-cam in the car, to record it all, should I need evidence.
Actually, I think I may put the clip on YouTube...
Please do. I mean why is it so funny, that they nearly lost their life due their stupidity. Moronic.
mvn said:
I just recently experienced the most blatant cutting in line from a Dutch person.
I put my stuff down on the counter, waiting for the cashier to finish the person before me.
There was no place for my basket so I walked to the next register where there were a stack. Mind you it is literally one step over so I was always in sight and you could barely consider me as having walked away. It was 2 seconds and with my back turned, the woman behind me just put all her stuff in front of my pile. I couldn't believe it. I just reacted and said what are you doing? She knew that she was completely wrong. She didn't even pretend to be surprised or act like she didn't understand. She just grabbed her stuff and put it behind my stuff. MY GOD! There is no sense of decorum. If this is a function of directness and calvinism, they have got it all wrong and I pray I am never on a sinking ship with them because they would surely step on you as you don't exist.
And forget Customer Service, they only repeat the rules like automatons. That's why they are vague. They don't even understand what they are doing. What a bleek existence. If not for the 30% ruling, I would have been out of here already as they certainly took their pound of flesh from my hard work.
I know what you mean, I had a similar experience not that long ago. I put my basket of goods down at the til and was just about to start putting my stuff on the empty conveyor belt when a young man suddenly came out of nowhere, rushing past me putting his one item on the conveyor belt in front of me. Outraged, not in the best of moods, I shouted, "EXCUSE ME!!!" Giving him a dirty, I need to punch you in the face look. He didn't have to wonder why. He looked at me shocked then left and used the next til. Unfortunately, I then spent time afterwards feeling guilty as he only had the one item, but it was the audacity of it, he only needed to have asked and I may have let him. But I wont stand by and have people push in like that regardless of how little items they may have.
And as for customer service, most of the time I seem to get by ok, but a few months back I was in Praxis and bought a 5 litre container of wall paint. Now the thing that really annoys me about these particular sized containers, is that they have a very thin wire as a handle with no plastic bit where you'd place your hand making carrying it a bit uncomfortable, that if you find yourself having to carry for some distance, the thin metal handle ends up digging quite deeply into ones skin.
After I bought it and having to carry it for quite a distance after parking the car then into our apartment and by the time I put it down, my hands looked red raw! After a short time it became clear that a vein had been blocked as a small patch of skin at the base of my finger started going blue, then a very dark blue followed by extreme pain! Really freaked me out! I kept flinging my hand into space hoping the blood would start flowing properly again and putting my hand under the hot tap and after about 10-15 minutes of panic it all started to subside. But I felt so angry at this stupid design on these containers of paint that I decided to complain the next time I went to Praxis.
Actually, I took the paint back a few weeks later as I decided I didn't need that much but made a point of using my leather gloves to carry it this time. Anyway, I went to the klantenservice desk and proceeded to complain and the woman replied back saying that no one else has had any problems. Feeling somewhat irritated at her response I said that that wasn't good enough, that I wanted to make a formal complaint. So, she made a phone call and an older man came down and he took my name and address saying that the containers of paint aren't meant to be carried for long distances. Another stupid response as far as I'm concerned as it doesn't matter, the metal wire as handles is totally wrong for any distance. And since then, 1st June, I've heard zilch! So a few days ago, I decided to contact them through their website but noticed that they don't appear to have a head office to complain to, only each individual store to complain to so I sent another complaint and again, I have so far heard nothing! I even complained to the trade mark owners of Sencys, Maxeda DIY B.V. only to hear nothing! Customer service at it's best! Absolutely useless!
mvn said:
fortuner said:
I find this Dutch directness more in the way Dutch cyclists ride their bikes without a care in the world what's happening around them, as if they're in a bubble and no one can hurt them more than anything else. I don't know what it is about the cyclists in this country, but they have this very unsafe habit of just cycling out of a side road into a main road without looking or even caring what may or may not be coming. I had it a few days ago, again, driving down a not particularly busy road when I saw this young woman with another young woman sitting on the front bike rack coming out of a side road as I was coming up to it. Both of them not even looking what was coming they came out right in front of me! Shocked, I braked and pulled to the middle of the road and as I slowly passed them gave them a dirty look with a few expletives. And they just laughed at me! Can't understand how little they must think of their lives that they put them in such jeopardy! These things happen so often here, another reason why I have a web-cam in the car, to record it all, should I need evidence.
Actually, I think I may put the clip on YouTube...
Please do. I mean why is it so funny, that they nearly lost their life due their stupidity. Moronic.
I probably shall... do YouTube allow swear words? I've never uploaded anything before and don't want to particularly lose my accout with them. I shout out f***ing b****! Then they burst out laughing. 
fortuner said:
mvn said:
fortuner said:
I find this Dutch directness more in the way Dutch cyclists ride their bikes without a care in the world what's happening around them, as if they're in a bubble and no one can hurt them more than anything else. I don't know what it is about the cyclists in this country, but they have this very unsafe habit of just cycling out of a side road into a main road without looking or even caring what may or may not be coming. I had it a few days ago, again, driving down a not particularly busy road when I saw this young woman with another young woman sitting on the front bike rack coming out of a side road as I was coming up to it. Both of them not even looking what was coming they came out right in front of me! Shocked, I braked and pulled to the middle of the road and as I slowly passed them gave them a dirty look with a few expletives. And they just laughed at me! Can't understand how little they must think of their lives that they put them in such jeopardy! These things happen so often here, another reason why I have a web-cam in the car, to record it all, should I need evidence.
Actually, I think I may put the clip on YouTube...
Please do. I mean why is it so funny, that they nearly lost their life due their stupidity. Moronic.
I probably shall... do YouTube allow swear words? I've never uploaded anything before and don't want to particularly lose my accout with them. I shout out f***ing b****! Then they burst out laughing.
Can you not edit that out or make it mute at that point?
woden said:
dutch directness - how's this for manners. We were out in the country on a hot afternoon, found a bench and sat down. Within 5 minutes a bloke came over and told us "I was going to sit there, that is my seat" I thought he was joking, but no he was serious.
WoW How about I was going to be a millionaire, pay me.
fortuner said:
And as for customer service, most of the time I seem to get by ok, but a few months back I was in Praxis and bought a 5 litre container of wall paint. Now the thing that really annoys me about these particular sized containers, is that they have a very thin wire as a handle with no plastic bit where you'd place your hand making carrying it a bit uncomfortable, that if you find yourself having to carry for some distance, the thin metal handle ends up digging quite deeply into ones skin.
After I bought it and having to carry it for quite a distance after parking the car then into our apartment and by the time I put it down, my hands looked red raw! After a short time it became clear that a vein had been blocked as a small patch of skin at the base of my finger started going blue, then a very dark blue followed by extreme pain! Really freaked me out! I kept flinging my hand into space hoping the blood would start flowing properly again and putting my hand under the hot tap and after about 10-15 minutes of panic it all started to subside. But I felt so angry at this stupid design on these containers of paint that I decided to complain the next time I went to Praxis.
Actually, I took the paint back a few weeks later as I decided I didn't need that much but made a point of using my leather gloves to carry it this time. Anyway, I went to the klantenservice desk and proceeded to complain and the woman replied back saying that no one else has had any problems. Feeling somewhat irritated at her response I said that that wasn't good enough, that I wanted to make a formal complaint. So, she made a phone call and an older man came down and he took my name and address saying that the containers of paint aren't meant to be carried for long distances. Another stupid response as far as I'm concerned as it doesn't matter, the metal wire as handles is totally wrong for any distance. And since then, 1st June, I've heard zilch! So a few days ago, I decided to contact them through their website but noticed that they don't appear to have a head office to complain to, only each individual store to complain to so I sent another complaint and again, I have so far heard nothing! I even complained to the trade mark owners of Sencys, Maxeda DIY B.V. only to hear nothing! Customer service at it's best! Absolutely useless!
Is this for real? What kind of complaint is that? What did you expect these people to say? The design of tins is pretty universal all over the world. And a 5 liter tin is heavy. Now you want to blame someone else for your decision to carry that tin for quite some distance in the same hand without protection?
