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Dutch trying to get Marocco to change nationality law again

emilio416
August 5, 2008 9:51:50 AM CEST

porkchop (Aug 5 2008, 04:07 AM) said: > original post
That is indeed the case sadly, I guess we all (must) shoulder some of the blame. The point is that despite the fact that Universeel is shamelessly trolling I feel I must rise to the challenge.
Aboriginal reconciliation has been an unbelievably painful experience in Australia and unless, speaking generally here, you have been part of that process (unlike Universeel) you wouldn't probaly grasp the gut-wrenching examination we, as a country have had to undergo.

I think most people will agree that there is only ONE way to reconciliation. This path has been shown so clearly by bishop Tutu in South Africa: bringing the perpetrators and the victims together and let them talk openly as long as they need, let them acknowledge everything that went wrong, untl finally, when the time isd there, people can forgive and later generations can live in peace and friendship together...Is this a dream in New Zealnd and Australia? It is my view that is perfectly possible.
clickit
August 5, 2008 11:45:20 AM CEST

emilio416 (Aug 5 2008, 06:51 AM) said: > original post
I think most people will agree that there is only ONE way to reconciliation. This path has been shown so clearly by bishop Tutu in South Africa: bringing the perpetrators and the victims together and let them talk openly as long as they need, let them acknowledge everything that went wrong, untl finally, when the time isd there, people can forgive and later generations can live in peace and friendship together...Is this a dream in New Zealnd and Australia? It is my view that is perfectly possible.

its been happening a long time already in New Zealand, look up 'Waitangi Tribunal' to find out about it. At this point I would like to smugly say NZ is much further down that road than Australia, however the issues and backgrounds are very different and its not a continuum. I remember 15 years ago attending community meetings in which a guest speaker from the Aus Aboriginal community was outlining initiatives taking place in Australia in which they were working as communities to develop projects and programmes for themselves. We started something like that in NZ too, the goal was to create a 'bottom-up' process in which communities were consulted and drove their own initiatives - with govt support, rather than the 'no consultation top-down - you-need-this' programmes that had run unsuccessfully to that point. I suspect there have been very different outcomes, most Maori communities in NZ are very entreprenurial and quick to take economic initiatives when the worst barriers are removed (ie institutionalised racism), I believe the Aboriginals have different cultural values again and may have different approaches and expectations and thus different outcomes from similar programmes. I dont know for sure, but I do know that in NZ there is a lot of positive stuff going on at the government and community level, there are still problems but the difference between now and 30 years ago is absolutley vast, in a positive way. For me the main lesson is to consult and support. I know the ethnic situation here in Holland is very different, but that lesson has apparently not yet been learned here - probably its harder to utelise anyway as what we have here is a very top-down system and a population that apparently prefers it that way (and they say we have a lot of sheep in NZ!).
username
August 5, 2008 1:26:07 PM CEST

clickit (Aug 5 2008, 08:45 AM) said: > original post
its been happening a long time already in New Zealand, look up 'Waitangi Tribunal' to find out about it. At this point I would like to smugly say NZ is much further down that road than Australia, however the issues and backgrounds are very different and its not a continuum. I remember 15 years ago attending community meetings in which a guest speaker from the Aus Aboriginal community was outlining initiatives taking place in Australia in which they were working as communities to develop projects and programmes for themselves. We started something like that in NZ too, the goal was to create a 'bottom-up' process in which communities were consulted and drove their own initiatives - with govt support, rather than the 'no consultation top-down - you-need-this' programmes that had run unsuccessfully to that point. I suspect there have been very different outcomes, most Maori communities in NZ are very entreprenurial and quick to take economic initiatives when the worst barriers are removed (ie institutionalised racism), I believe the Aboriginals have different cultural values again and may have different approaches and expectations and thus different outcomes from similar programmes. I dont know for sure, but I do know that in NZ there is a lot of positive stuff going on at the government and community level, there are still problems but the difference between now and 30 years ago is absolutley vast, in a positive way. For me the main lesson is to consult and support. I know the ethnic situation here in Holland is very different, but that lesson has apparently not yet been learned here - probably its harder to utelise anyway as what we have here is a very top-down system and a population that apparently prefers it that way (and they say we have a lot of sheep in NZ!).

The main problem I see is that the natives here in Holland seem to think they own the place. That somehow, because their ancestors have been living here for 1000 years, they have some special rights to this land. That just because they care about their culture and language, which exist only here in this small corner of Europe, and not in an area that spans about a fifth of the globe, their culture somehow deserves a special status in this country. The Dutch - and in fact the whole world- have a lot to learn from NZ.
clickit
August 5, 2008 2:29:41 PM CEST

username (Aug 5 2008, 10:26 AM) said: > original post
The main problem I see is that the natives here in Holland seem to think they own the place. That somehow, because their ancestors have been living here for 1000 years, they have some special rights to this land. That just because they care about their culture and language, which exist only here in this small corner of Europe, and not in an area that spans about a fifth of the globe, their culture somehow deserves a special status in this country. The Dutch - and in fact the whole world- have a lot to learn from NZ.

I dont agree. NZ has nothing to 'teach' the world, because you cant transplant solutions from one country or culture to the next. Also, the Maori DO have special status in NZ as the original inhabitants - all current legislation and issues are based on the Treaty of Waitangi, wrongs are being righted and claims being made based on the rights given in that treaty, and NZ is first a bicultural society, and only more recently a widely multicultural one. The original inhabitants certainly do have special rights, why shouldnt they. What you are missing is that the Netherlands has not been 'colonised' and never will be in the way that Aus, NZ, USA and Canada were. So the issues and background are different. The dutch culture does deserve respect, it is exactly what makes the netherlands and the dutch unique, just like the maori, aboriginal, english, french etc etc. I dont know how you could say otherwise. The dutch natives DO own the place, they are also the majority. What needs to happen is for the notion of 'allochtone' to disappear, anyone born and raised here is dutch regardless of their ethnic heritage, they can be 'different' dutch, but they should still be viewed and treated as 'dutch'.

What we could use is the idea of 'equal but different' rather than the current dutch notion that 'equal means the same'.
tudor_geo
- 736 posts
August 5, 2008 3:17:34 PM CEST

Let science shed light upon this matter and enlighten our minds:

QUOTE ("Wikipedia")
And, certainly, having only one passport works contrary to the purpose it is supposed of making true. Cora Kreft, a sociologist working for the General Chamber of Accountants in the Netherlands, the Dutch instance which controls policy effectiveness and efficiency in the Netherlands, refers to W.I. Thomas' and Znaniecki's book The Polish Peasant in Europe and America, stating that when people are allowed to form ethnic communities and behave therein as their community prescribes, they integrate much better than in the opposite case[6].

# ^ I. van Huis, "'De openheid van dossiers is een ongekende luxe'" Facta, year 15, September 2007, no. 3, p. 15. See also p. 22 of the same issue of Facta, for a short presentation of the conclusions of Maarten Evenblij, Respect! Onderzoek naar sociale cohesie in Nederland, Aksant, 2007, ISBN 978-90-5260-257-8; this presentation confirms Mrs. Kreft's affirmation.
tudor_geo
- 736 posts
August 5, 2008 3:21:31 PM CEST

Btw, I have dual nationality, and if I marry a woman with Moroccan and Dutch nationalities, our children would have triple nationality. But, wait, if she has Moroccan and German nationalities, our children would have quadruple nationality (four passports). If such a child grows up and marries a somebody with French and Turkish nationalities, their offspring will have six passports.
universeel
August 5, 2008 6:41:57 PM CEST

The facts about Australia some Australians would not want you to know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7eubc-Yk3M The land is stolen!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG3ny9Kiq9I...feature=related

Yeaaa can't wait to wave that Australian flag with the little British flag in it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZIZAS8CkTw

The sites the tourist authority in Australia would not show you as a tourist!
clickit
August 5, 2008 11:29:06 PM CEST

universeel (Aug 5 2008, 03:41 PM) said: > original post
The facts about Australia some Australians would not want you to know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7eubc-Yk3M The land is stolen!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG3ny9Kiq9I...feature=related

Yeaaa can't wait to wave that Australian flag with the little British flag in it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZIZAS8CkTw

The sites the tourist authority in Australia would not show you as a tourist!

this thread has become incredibly childish.
porkchop
- 696 posts
August 6, 2008 3:06:42 AM CEST

clickit (Aug 5 2008, 08:29 PM) said: > original post
this thread has become incredibly childish.

I think Universeel has acheived his/her aim then...

As the Rastas would say "He who feels it knows it"...Uni is both unfeeling and unkowing.
emilio416
August 6, 2008 3:21:15 AM CEST

Uni "thinks" he has "universal knowledge" but in fact has "global ignorance"...
porkchop
- 696 posts
August 6, 2008 3:27:07 AM CEST

emilio416 (Aug 6 2008, 12:21 AM) said: > original post
Uni "thinks" he has "universal knowledge" but in fact has "global ignorance"...

In both hemispheres!
fook
- 308 posts
August 6, 2008 2:52:51 PM CEST

universeel (Aug 5 2008, 03:41 PM) said: > original post
The facts about Australia some Australians would not want you to know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7eubc-Yk3M The land is stolen!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG3ny9Kiq9I...feature=related

Yeaaa can't wait to wave that Australian flag with the little British flag in it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZIZAS8CkTw

The sites the tourist authority in Australia would not show you as a tourist!

Universeel, if you really worry about the Dutch culture getting extinct and want to promote it, I have an advice for you. Marry a Dutch girl, have 5 kids with her and give them Dutch upbringing. This IS a fair and effective way to promote your culture.

But jamming your culture up the throats of all of us foreigners who happen to live here by demanding assimilation, banning dual nationality etc. is NOT a good way to do it! Be sure that if you choose to do the latter the foreigners will resist such attempts very stubbornly! And in addition they will start hating and despising the Dutch and their culture, which already started happening in the past 5 years. The result of such action would be exactly opposite to what you want to achieve in terms of promoting Dutch culture.
fortuner
- 10421 posts
August 6, 2008 3:31:48 PM CEST

fook (Aug 6 2008, 12:52 PM) said: > original post
Universeel, if you really worry about the Dutch culture getting extinct and want to promote it, I have an advice for you. Marry a Dutch girl, have 5 kids with her and give them Dutch upbringing. This IS a fair and effective way to promote your culture.

But jamming your culture up the throats of all of us foreigners who happen to live here by demanding assimilation, banning dual nationality etc. is NOT a good way to do it! Be sure that if you choose to do the latter the foreigners will resist such attempts very stubbornly! And in addition they will start hating and despising the Dutch and their culture, which already started happening in the past 5 years. The result of such action would be exactly opposite to what you want to achieve in terms of promoting Dutch culture.

I agree... no one likes things forced down their throat, do they.
wildrosecountry
- 2883 posts
August 6, 2008 4:48:05 PM CEST

fook (Aug 6 2008, 11:52 AM) said: > original post
Universeel, if you really worry about the Dutch culture getting extinct and want to promote it, I have an advice for you. Marry a Dutch girl, have 5 kids with her and give them Dutch upbringing. This IS a fair and effective way to promote your culture.

But jamming your culture up the throats of all of us foreigners who happen to live here by demanding assimilation, banning dual nationality etc. is NOT a good way to do it! Be sure that if you choose to do the latter the foreigners will resist such attempts very stubbornly! And in addition they will start hating and despising the Dutch and their culture, which already started happening in the past 5 years. The result of such action would be exactly opposite to what you want to achieve in terms of promoting Dutch culture.

Quite right. And the people that do try accept Dutch culture, learn the language, give up passports do they become Dutch really?
fortuner
- 10421 posts
August 6, 2008 5:28:51 PM CEST

wildrosecountry (Aug 6 2008, 02:48 PM) said: > original post
Quite right. And the people that do try accept Dutch culture, learn the language, give up passports do they become Dutch really?

Exactly.
universeel
August 7, 2008 12:10:05 AM CEST

porkchop (Aug 6 2008, 12:27 AM) said: > original post
In both hemispheres!

You can all go f%%k off back to your stolen land DOWN UNDER!! The Netherlands is NOT FOR SALE NOR ARE WE GOING TO CHANGE OUR WAY OF LIFE OR LANGUAGE!!

YOU AUSTRALIANS CAN'T TALK ABOUT IMMIGRATION BECAUSE YOU HAVE ONE OF THE WORST RECORDS IN THE WORLD WHEN IT COMES TO IMMIGRATION.

DOES THE WHITE AUSTRALIA POLICY RING A BELL?

The White Australia policy is a term used to describe a collection of historical legislation and policies that intentionally restricted non-white immigration to Australia from 1901 to 1973.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_policy
Deleted Member
August 7, 2008 1:10:10 AM CEST

universeel (Aug 6 2008, 09:10 PM) said: > original post
You can all go f%%k off back to your stolen land DOWN UNDER!! The Netherlands is NOT FOR SALE NOR ARE WE GOING TO CHANGE OUR WAY OF LIFE OR LANGUAGE!!

YOU AUSTRALIANS CAN'T TALK ABOUT IMMIGRATION BECAUSE YOU HAVE ONE OF THE WORST RECORDS IN THE WORLD WHEN IT COMES TO IMMIGRATION.

DOES THE WHITE AUSTRALIA POLICY RING A BELL?

The White Australia policy is a term used to describe a collection of historical legislation and policies that intentionally restricted non-white immigration to Australia from 1901 to 1973.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_policy

From what I've heard. Abel Tasman discovered Tasmania and "missed" Australia. Other (Dutch) sources suggest that he did, indeed, discover Australia, but baulked at the prospect of tackling the primeval "natives' that thronged to the shores in anticipation of the big ship with sails that loomed on the horizon. A lost opportunity for Tasman, and a lost opportunity for Holland too. Maybe they could have carried out attrocities on a similar scale that they subjected upon Indonesia?

Well, It ain't much if it ain't Dutch/IF it ain't Dutch it ain't Much!! But WHY say it in English ALWAYS? Surely a SERIOUS paradoxical statement ... or shall we call it "Double Dutch"? Please explain. Also, I've seen stickers, at a few MC's stating "Speak Dutch! Or get the fvck out of here!" ... again, strangely, in English!

Anyway, this debate has NOTHING to do with Australian/English-colonial hangover policies. It's to do with Moroccan issues in Holland ... another side of the world away from your diatribes. What IS your point?

Do we have Australian's hanging around street corners in Amsterdam or Klansdorp, NL (I suspect you may live in the latter!) intimidating people, or do we have groups of young Aborigines 'noising' women, children and the elderly up whilst walking down the street? I've yet to hear "Kanker hoer" being uttered with an Aboriginal Australian accent, in my neighbourhood, at least, and I DO live in a highly multi-cultural neighbourhood.

I agree that the Australian/English-Colonial mentality, policies, doctrines did LITTLE to bring any form of satisfaction to the 'lot' of the Aboriginal (by the way, that means native, as opposed to exclusively Australian) people of Australia.

But since you seem sooooooooo proud to take the 'high-hand' over your affirmations about the Australian/English-colonialism over the Aboriginals, may I ask ...

Do you feel so proud, in your Dutch way, about the fact you're a member of the nation LAST in the Western World to abolish slavery. Or, indeed, the occupied country in WWII that capitulated to send MORE Jews to the Gas Chambers than ANY OTHER occupied nation. The former is OLD history. The latter is a matter of just over 60 years back. Have times and peoples perspectives and attitudes, changed remarkably in Holland in just over half-a-century? Or do you still harboUr the thought, as evidenced in your signature, that "IF it ain't Dutch it ain't Much!/It ain't much if it ain't Dutch"?

Just a valid point.
porkchop
- 696 posts
August 7, 2008 3:24:03 AM CEST

universeel (Aug 6 2008, 09:10 PM) said: > original post
You can all go f%%k off back to your stolen land DOWN UNDER!! The Netherlands is NOT FOR SALE NOR ARE WE GOING TO CHANGE OUR WAY OF LIFE OR LANGUAGE!!

YOU AUSTRALIANS CAN'T TALK ABOUT IMMIGRATION BECAUSE YOU HAVE ONE OF THE WORST RECORDS IN THE WORLD WHEN IT COMES TO IMMIGRATION.

You got the first point wrong straight off the bat, I can hardly f%%k off back to Australia. I am in Australia!!. I can't come to NL because of the unneccesarily harsh and restrictive immigration policies in the Netherlands. I don't think anyone ever mentioned that NL is for sale or even that you have to change your way of life or culture (although that is a foregone conclusion in this day and age).
I feel I am emminently entitled to talk about immigration, Australia has become in the last three or four decades one of the most culturally diverse nations on earth! Apart from the large waves of European immigration in the 20th century there have been equally large influxes of non-European people to our shores in recent times and you only have to take a walk down any average-sized city here to witness this.

I've made this point Uni on this forum in the past but where I currently live (in Tasmania as it so happens) the Dutch are the single largest immigrant group after the British and the township where I live is nicknamed "little Groningen" because of this. It also has a 'sister city' in NL, Grootegast, and I can buy stroop, drop, speculaas etc in our supermarkets any day of the week. The difference is that by and large we are "inclusive" in our thinking something the average Piet-lul wouldn't know the first thing about. We welcome new cultures and peoples to our shores, it's something that enriches culture...
fortuner
- 10421 posts
August 7, 2008 4:37:29 AM CEST

porkchop (Aug 7 2008, 01:24 AM) said: > original post
The difference is that by and large we are "inclusive" in our thinking something the average Piet-lul wouldn't know the first thing about. We welcome new cultures and peoples to our shores, it's something that enriches culture...

Where as here...
porkchop
- 696 posts
August 7, 2008 5:01:35 AM CEST

wesleynl (Aug 7 2008, 01:37 AM) said: > original post
Where as here...

I think you can see where I'm coming from Wes...
fortuner
- 10421 posts
August 7, 2008 4:09:29 PM CEST

porkchop (Aug 7 2008, 03:01 AM) said: > original post
I think you can see where I'm coming from Wes...

Yes, I can...
wouter1982
August 8, 2008 6:33:54 PM CEST

Universeel, please behave like a normal person once, I'm almost ashamed that I have the same nationality as you. Nobody here states that we must change our language or so. I admit it's sometimes a bit annoying that some English-speaking people expect everyone to speak English all the time, and sometimes do not even seem to recognize that NL is not an English-speaking country, but that's no reason to be so impolite to every non-Dutch person here.
Deleted Member
August 8, 2008 7:05:19 PM CEST

wouter1982 (Aug 8 2008, 03:33 PM) said: > original post
Universeel, please behave like a normal person once, I'm almost ashamed that I have the same nationality as you. Nobody here states that we must change our language or so. I admit it's sometimes a bit annoying that some English-speaking people expect everyone to speak English all the time, and sometimes do not even seem to recognize that NL is not an English-speaking country, but that's no reason to be so impolite to every non-Dutch person here.

Heel goed gezegd. If it ain't Dutch it ain't a ... Universeel post!
clickit
August 8, 2008 9:26:01 PM CEST

universeel (Aug 4 2008, 07:59 PM) said: > original post
Porckchop why do you Oostraalians come over here and tell us how we should run our country and hand out dual citizenship??

universeel seems to have missed the irony... the topic is about the dutch going to Morocco (in an official capacity no less) and telling them what to do with their citizenships...

I dont see any Australian (or any other) govenment representative coming to the Netherlands and telling them to change their nationality regulations...
Deleted Member
August 8, 2008 10:05:11 PM CEST

clickit (Aug 8 2008, 06:26 PM) said: > original post
universeel seems to have missed the irony... the topic is about the dutch going to Morocco (in an official capacity no less) and telling them what to do with their citizenships...

I dont see any Australian (or any other) govenment representative coming to the Netherlands and telling them to change their nationality regulations...

As I said ...

Anyway, this debate has NOTHING to do with Australian/English-colonial hangover policies. It's to do with Moroccan issues in Holland ... another side of the world away from your diatribes. What IS your point?

Do we have Australian's hanging around street corners in Amsterdam or Klansdorp, NL (I suspect you may live in the latter!) intimidating people, or do we have groups of young Aborigines 'noising' women, children and the elderly up whilst walking down the street? I've yet to hear "Kanker hoer" being uttered with an Aboriginal Australian accent, in my neighbourhood, at least, and I DO live in a highly multi-cultural neighbourhood.