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pregnant and elderly on public transport

nez
- 1 posts
August 13, 2007 12:15:05 PM CEST

It makes me sick going on public transport every day, seeing pregnant/disabled/elderly people stading up and able bodied people not even considering to give them a seat first, or give up their seat. any idea how ths can be changed?
ratkat
August 13, 2007 12:35:15 PM CEST

That requires concepts like courtesy, politeness, empathy and respect which are in short supply here. I think it would take generations to instill these qualities *sigh*
papasutra
- 786 posts
August 13, 2007 2:00:47 PM CEST

Chivalry is dead - in these parts.
sulagoetjes_hotmail_com
August 13, 2007 2:11:16 PM CEST

(ratkat)
That requires concepts like courtesy, politeness, empathy and respect which are in short supply here. I think it would take generations to instill these qualities *sigh*

Dutchies don't have any concept of the meaning of sharing things, they don't know what it is.

I've noticed this at work.
sulagoetjes_hotmail_com
August 13, 2007 2:14:28 PM CEST

I always stand up for oldies and pregnant women on the trams. Some people actually seem quite shocked when I offer them a seat.
ldyparadox99
- 314 posts
August 13, 2007 8:08:44 PM CEST

Yup, this pisses me off too. I've been taught that the younger able bodied people are supposed to get up for those who can't stand for long periods.

I've been known to cause quite a scene on public transport when the younger crowd sits and stares at the old/pregnant/disabled who can barely stand up and I make no apologies about it either.
nez
- 1 posts
August 14, 2007 3:30:37 PM CEST

I am a little scared of the reaction I may get if i tell someone to get up for someone in need of a seat, being a foreign, non menacing looking girl. Of course I get up myself, but can I tell other people to do it also?
merly
August 14, 2007 4:43:26 PM CEST

(nez)
I am a little scared of the reaction I may get if i tell someone to get up for someone in need of a seat, being a foreign, non menacing looking girl. Of course I get up myself, but can I tell other people to do it also?

I hardly witness people NOT get up for elderly people or pregnant women.

You can always ask them to get up for the person in need. Just try not to be offensive or pushy. If they don't, they're pigs, so just let it rest. If they do, thank them. There is a good chance they will feel embarrassed by the question as they realize they didn't do it out of their own initiative and do as you asked them.
monkeynuts
- 1415 posts
August 14, 2007 5:13:08 PM CEST

(Merly)
(nez)
I am a little scared of the reaction I may get if i tell someone to get up for someone in need of a seat, being a foreign, non menacing looking girl. Of course I get up myself, but can I tell other people to do it also?

I hardly witness people NOT get up for elderly people or pregnant women.

You can always ask them to get up for the person in need. Just try not to be offensive or pushy. If they don't, they're pigs, so just let it rest. If they do, thank them. There is a good chance they will feel embarrassed by the question as they realize they didn't do it out of their own initiative and do as you asked them.

Isn't it weird Merly - you are Dutch and haven't noticed this, the rest of the postings are from ex-pats who state that this is indeed a problem. Do you not find that strange?
merly
August 14, 2007 5:35:04 PM CEST

(MonkeyNuts)
(Merly)
(nez)
I am a little scared of the reaction I may get if i tell someone to get up for someone in need of a seat, being a foreign, non menacing looking girl. Of course I get up myself, but can I tell other people to do it also?

I hardly witness people NOT get up for elderly people or pregnant women.

You can always ask them to get up for the person in need. Just try not to be offensive or pushy. If they don't, they're pigs, so just let it rest. If they do, thank them. There is a good chance they will feel embarrassed by the question as they realize they didn't do it out of their own initiative and do as you asked them.

Isn't it weird Merly - you are Dutch and haven't noticed this, the rest of the postings are from ex-pats who state that this is indeed a problem. Do you not find that strange?

First of all, I don't like the way you asked this question. It's.. how do I say it in english... in dutch it would be 'neerbuigend'. I suppose this would be right: Don't be so depreciatory.

Have you ever considered the fact that the 5-6 people that have posted here do not represent the entire ex-pat community? And the fact that not every dutch person is the same?

Reading these forums has opened an entirely new NL to me. It's like you are living in some sort of alternate universe where the NL is a dreadful place full of socially retarded people and what not.

Enough with the goddamn generalising already.
chaucer
August 14, 2007 5:36:41 PM CEST

(Merly)
(MonkeyNuts)
(Merly)
(nez)
I am a little scared of the reaction I may get if i tell someone to get up for someone in need of a seat, being a foreign, non menacing looking girl. Of course I get up myself, but can I tell other people to do it also?

I hardly witness people NOT get up for elderly people or pregnant women.

You can always ask them to get up for the person in need. Just try not to be offensive or pushy. If they don't, they're pigs, so just let it rest. If they do, thank them. There is a good chance they will feel embarrassed by the question as they realize they didn't do it out of their own initiative and do as you asked them.

Isn't it weird Merly - you are Dutch and haven't noticed this, the rest of the postings are from ex-pats who state that this is indeed a problem. Do you not find that strange?

First of all, I don't like the way you asked this question. It's.. how do I say it in english... in dutch it would be 'neerbuigend'. I suppose this would be right: Don't be so depreciatory.

Have you ever considered the fact that the 5-6 people that have posted here do not represent the entire ex-pat community? And the fact that not every dutch person is the same?

Reading these forums has opened an entirely new NL to me. It's like you are living in some sort of alternate universe where the NL is a dreadful place full of socially retarded people and what not.

Enough with the goddamn generalising already.
Another one in denial. I can't be bothered anymore.
merly
August 14, 2007 5:39:59 PM CEST

W/e.
papasutra
- 786 posts
August 14, 2007 5:56:46 PM CEST

Merly wrote

First of all, I don't like the way you asked this question. It's.. how do I say it in english... in dutch it would be 'neerbuigend'. I suppose this would be right: Don't be so depreciatory.

Have you ever considered the fact that the 5-6 people that have posted here do not represent the entire ex-pat community? And the fact that not every dutch person is the same?

Reading these forums has opened an entirely new NL to me. It's like you are living in some sort of alternate universe where the NL is a dreadful place full of socially retarded people and what not.

Enough with the goddamn generalising already.

A classic case of "not being able to see the forest through the trees"
monkeynuts
- 1415 posts
August 14, 2007 6:09:41 PM CEST

First of all, I don't like the way you asked this question. It's.. how do I say it in english... in dutch it would be 'neerbuigend'. I suppose this would be right: Don't be so depreciatory.

Have you ever considered the fact that the 5-6 people that have posted here do not represent the entire ex-pat community? And the fact that not every dutch person is the same?

Reading these forums has opened an entirely new NL to me. It's like you are living in some sort of alternate universe where the NL is a dreadful place full of socially retarded people and what not.

Enough with the goddamn generalising already.

Well, well, I wondered how long it would be before you showed your teeth. You sounded so normal and concerned earlier. If you don't like the way I posed the question, then I suggest you get over yourself and look at what is being conveyed, instead of getting all bent out of shape and indignant.

Do you honestly think I would base my comments on 5 people? Even my Dutch partner agrees when it comes to the general lack of manners on public transport.

I’m very pleased this forum has opened up an entirely new NL to you – a lot of Dutch just sail through their life without any problems touching them, oblivious to the problems of expats and what we have to tolerate. There is a large percentage of Dutch who are socially inept, and I stated the reasons another thread, due to their free and easy upbringing with no boundaries or manners – just because it’s painful to hear doesn’t mean it ain’t true!

If something happens to you on a regular basis, ie: rude shopkeepers, being pushed and shoved on the train etc. then yes, you have to generalise to make the point. Of course there is a slight chance you may get a polite shopkeeper, and maybe occasionally I won’t get shoved in the ribs by somebody racing me to a seat on the train, but it’s very rare.

Of course it's disturbing to read these things when you imagined foreigners had the impression the Dutch were such wonderful people living in a utopia type country - but wouldn't you rather be aware, however hard it is - than be in ignorance like the majority?
merly
August 14, 2007 6:29:34 PM CEST

(MonkeyNuts)

First of all, I don't like the way you asked this question. It's.. how do I say it in english... in dutch it would be 'neerbuigend'. I suppose this would be right: Don't be so depreciatory.

Have you ever considered the fact that the 5-6 people that have posted here do not represent the entire ex-pat community? And the fact that not every dutch person is the same?

Reading these forums has opened an entirely new NL to me. It's like you are living in some sort of alternate universe where the NL is a dreadful place full of socially retarded people and what not.

Enough with the goddamn generalising already.

Well, well, I wondered how long it would be before you showed your teeth. You sounded so normal and concerned earlier. If you don't like the way I posed the question, then I suggest you get over yourself and look at what is being conveyed, instead of getting all bent out of shape and indignant.

Do you honestly think I would base my comments on 5 people? Even my Dutch partner agrees when it comes to the general lack of manners on public transport.

I’m very pleased this forum has opened up an entirely new NL to you – a lot of Dutch just sail through their life without any problems touching them, oblivious to the problems of expats and what we have to tolerate. There is a large percentage of Dutch who are socially inept, and I stated the reasons another thread, due to their free and easy upbringing with no boundaries or manners – just because it’s painful to hear doesn’t mean it ain’t true!

If something happens to you on a regular basis, ie: rude shopkeepers, being pushed and shoved on the train etc. then yes, you have to generalise to make the point. Of course there is a slight chance you may get a polite shopkeeper, and maybe occasionally I won’t get shoved in the ribs by somebody racing me to a seat on the train, but it’s very rare.

Of course it's disturbing to read these things when you imagined foreigners had the impression the Dutch were such wonderful people living in a utopia type country - but wouldn't you rather be aware, however hard it is - than be in ignorance like the majority?
papasutra
- 786 posts
August 14, 2007 6:47:55 PM CEST

unlike the two people before you (who were pretty rude btw.

Uh, I guess that's me your talking about Merly. Me? Rude? Well, I never!?
clickit
August 15, 2007 1:08:00 PM CEST

(Merly)
Ain't showing my teeth. I am perfectly calm in case you didn't notice (then again, it is hard to tell over the internet).

For the record, I find it not at all disturbing to read that some of the foreigners here don't like how (some) dutch people behave. What I do find disturbing is that they seem to assume The Dutch are socially retarded.

I do not experience ANY of the rude shopkeepers and shoving around in trains that you are talking about. I have known many foreigners and they have never had any complaints concerning stuff like this. Some of my best friends are foreign. All they whine about is the weather. They claim to love the people here and the way people treat them.

well I can say the same thing, some of my best friends are dutch, and they often complain about the poor service, the difficulty in getting anything done or truthful responses to questions from service providers, they complain about the 'hard' dutch society and the lack of compassion people show each other here. They complain about the high taxes and too many rules, and they complain about their fellow countrymen who think only of themselves and dont care who they walk over (literally and figuratively). Should I tell them they are wrong? Its their country... I dont know what planet you live on but to claim you have 'never' met a 'bad shopkeeper' is just incredible (in any country!), it makes the rest of your post less credible to claim so.

Nobody is claiming that 'the dutch' are socially retarded, and dont forget many of us are married or partnered to dutch people and would consider that as much an insult as you, however you must also surely acknowledge that there is an element in this society who make the rest of you look bad, and unfortunately they are fairly prominent due to their ability to grab attention (ie Wilders, Verdonk and the entire Flodder family at the swimming pool the other day making pests of themselves). Add to that the 'tolerance' of most dutch people - which means they never do anything about the bad service or say anything about the a-so's who shove you off the train, and its not surprising that expats notice it while dutch treat it as 'normal'.

There was a survey done a while ago of expat workers in Den Haag (which is really a lovely city) and the vast majority of them (was it 75%?) wanted to leave. Thats rather a lot I think. Its not just one or two disgruntled expats posting negative messages on forums. You can accept it or reject it as you wish, but there is no point trying to deny it.
monkeynuts
- 1415 posts
August 15, 2007 2:11:42 PM CEST

(Merly)
Ain't showing my teeth. I am perfectly calm in case you didn't notice (then again, it is hard to tell over the internet).

For the record, I find it not at all disturbing to read that some of the foreigners here don't like how (some) dutch people behave. What I do find disturbing is that they seem to assume The Dutch are socially retarded.

I do not experience ANY of the rude shopkeepers and shoving around in trains that you are talking about. I have known many foreigners and they have never had any complaints concerning stuff like this. Some of my best friends are foreign. All they whine about is the weather. They claim to love the people here and the way people treat them.

So what DO you base your conclusions on - if not the forum-dwellers?

Oh, and I can atleast thank you for bothering to reply in a normal fashion, unlike the two people before you (who were pretty rude btw. Why not set a good example for a poor socially retarded dutchman like myself? ;/)

But can’t you see how badly this reflects on you? Just because you haven’t experienced ANY rude shopkeepers doesn’t mean there aren’t any. It’s just a ridiculous statement and is tantamount to calling us all liars. This is my pet peeve when people come out with – well it hasn’t happened to me so it can’t be true! How shallow and narrow minded, not to mention selfish and self serving.

Maybe the ‘many’ foreigners you have known don’t want to embarrass you so would rather tell you the good things rather than the bad – have you thought of this? Also if I came from a place which was politically unstable and poor, the fact there is rude shopkeepers would be the last thing I would complain about as I guess they are just thankful to be here.

I’m sorry, but this sort of statement just reinforces the stereotype of a Dutch person – in denial to the experiences of other people (unless it happens to them), and an unwillingness to recognise the short falls of their country.

When we say socially retarded it’s not saying you are mentally retarded – we are referring to your lack of social graces and inappropriate behaviour when in the company of others (except of course a fellow Dutch person who wouldn’t of course notice).

Politeness, humility, manners and kindness doesn’t cost anything, but goes to make a far more tolerant society, and I’m afraid to say it’s severely lacking in this country.

You have to remember that a lot of us have partners who are Dutch and are part of a Dutch extended family, so we do know what goes on in the inner circles of Dutch society – this doesn’t apply to people who come over on a 3 year contract, are single and just drink and mix with other ex-pats and may be just meet a few Dutch in the bars occasionally.
merly
August 15, 2007 2:52:26 PM CEST

(MonkeyNuts)
(Merly)

Ain't showing my teeth. I am perfectly calm in case you didn't notice (then again, it is hard to tell over the internet).

For the record, I find it not at all disturbing to read that some of the foreigners here don't like how (some) dutch people behave. What I do find disturbing is that they seem to assume The Dutch are socially retarded.

I do not experience ANY of the rude shopkeepers and shoving around in trains that you are talking about. I have known many foreigners and they have never had any complaints concerning stuff like this. Some of my best friends are foreign. All they whine about is the weather. They claim to love the people here and the way people treat them.

So what DO you base your conclusions on - if not the forum-dwellers?

Oh, and I can atleast thank you for bothering to reply in a normal fashion, unlike the two people before you (who were pretty rude btw. Why not set a good example for a poor socially retarded dutchman like myself? ;/)

But can’t you see how badly this reflects on you? Just because you haven’t experienced ANY rude shopkeepers doesn’t mean there aren’t any. It’s just a ridiculous statement and is tantamount to calling us all liars. This is my pet peeve when people come out with – well it hasn’t happened to me so it can’t be true! How shallow and narrow minded, not to mention selfish and self serving.

Just because you have experienced rude shopkeepers and alike doesn't mean the dutch society is socially retarded. It means that there are rude shopkeepers. And thus if I don't encounter them it must mean not all of them are rude. Can't you see how badly this reflects on you? You assume just because you have had bad experiences it is the same all across Holland and all of its inhabitants. How shallow and narrow minded, not to mention selfish and self serving.

Maybe the ‘many’ foreigners you have known don’t want to embarrass you so would rather tell you the good things rather than the bad – have you thought of this? Also if I came from a place which was politically unstable and poor, the fact there is rude shopkeepers would be the last thing I would complain about as I guess they are just thankful to be here.

They are mostly German and British, thank you.

I’m sorry, but this sort of statement just reinforces the stereotype of a Dutch person – in denial to the experiences of other people (unless it happens to them), and an unwillingness to recognise the short falls of their country.

Sure this country has shortcomings, just like any other country out there. You will find that every expat forum will have whine in it. Mostly whine even, as that's what forums are most used for. People that are content won't come on here and tell us every day.

When we say socially retarded it’s not saying you are mentally retarded – we are referring to your lack of social graces and inappropriate behaviour when in the company of others (except of course a fellow Dutch person who wouldn’t of course notice).

Where did you get the strange idea that I think you were referring to the Dutch as mentally retarded? This is your interpretation, and I must say it is a very suspicious one.

Politeness, humility, manners and kindness doesn’t cost anything, but goes to make a far more tolerant society, and I’m afraid to say it’s severely lacking in this country.

Agreed on the first part. And it's definitely a factor for a certain part of the people of this country, but far from all. It is also being said that the east of the country is generally more socially adept and tolerant towards foreigners, but this you would have to find out for yourself.

You have to remember that a lot of us have partners who are Dutch and are part of a Dutch extended family, so we do know what goes on in the inner circles of Dutch society – this doesn’t apply to people who come over on a 3 year contract, are single and just drink and mix with other ex-pats and may be just meet a few Dutch in the bars occasionally.

You still haven't answered my question.
monkeynuts
- 1415 posts
August 15, 2007 3:03:12 PM CEST

And what question might that be Merly?
merly
August 15, 2007 3:09:52 PM CEST

(clickit)
(Merly)

Ain't showing my teeth. I am perfectly calm in case you didn't notice (then again, it is hard to tell over the internet).

For the record, I find it not at all disturbing to read that some of the foreigners here don't like how (some) dutch people behave. What I do find disturbing is that they seem to assume The Dutch are socially retarded.

I do not experience ANY of the rude shopkeepers and shoving around in trains that you are talking about. I have known many foreigners and they have never had any complaints concerning stuff like this. Some of my best friends are foreign. All they whine about is the weather. They claim to love the people here and the way people treat them.

well I can say the same thing, some of my best friends are dutch, and they often complain about the poor service, the difficulty in getting anything done or truthful responses to questions from service providers, they complain about the 'hard' dutch society and the lack of compassion people show each other here. They complain about the high taxes and too many rules, and they complain about their fellow countrymen who think only of themselves and dont care who they walk over (literally and figuratively). Should I tell them they are wrong? Its their country... I dont know what planet you live on but to claim you have 'never' met a 'bad shopkeeper' is just incredible (in any country!), it makes the rest of your post less credible to claim so.

Saying I had NEVER met a rude shopkeeper was ofcourse exaggerated. My bad. I've had a few but it's more of an exception than a rule. Whereas it seems to be the other way around with your experiences.

Nobody is claiming that 'the dutch' are socially retarded, and dont forget many of us are married or partnered to dutch people and would consider that as much an insult as you, however you must also surely acknowledge that there is an element in this society who make the rest of you look bad, and unfortunately they are fairly prominent due to their ability to grab attention (ie Wilders, Verdonk and the entire Flodder family at the swimming pool the other day making pests of themselves). Add to that the 'tolerance' of most dutch people - which means they never do anything about the bad service or say anything about the a-so's who shove you off the train, and its not surprising that expats notice it while dutch treat it as 'normal'.

There was a survey done a while ago of expat workers in Den Haag (which is really a lovely city) and the vast majority of them (was it 75%?) wanted to leave. Thats rather a lot I think. Its not just one or two disgruntled expats posting negative messages on forums. You can accept it or reject it as you wish, but there is no point trying to deny it.

Fair enough, but was it just the one city or were there surveys questioning people about some of the more eastern cities (Nijmegen, Arnhem) and some of the northern ones (Leeuwarden, Groningen) as well?
Or better even, a survey of expats living and working in some of the more rural areas? I don't know about you, but for me, going to the west of the country (living in the east and born in the north myself) is quite a difference in the inhabitants behaviour. It's nearly like it's two seperate countries (Holland is often used as a synonym for the Netherlands but it is actually a name for the provinces South Holland and North Holland combined).

As for the likes of Wilders, Verdonk, and the late Pim Fortuyn, they have quite a large following unfortunately. I am most certainly not one of them.
merly
August 15, 2007 3:17:39 PM CEST

(MonkeyNuts)
And what question might that be Merly?

"So what DO you base your conclusions on - if not the forum-dwellers?"
fortuner
- 10421 posts
August 15, 2007 3:55:19 PM CEST

(Merly)
(MonkeyNuts)
(Merly)
(nez)
I am a little scared of the reaction I may get if i tell someone to get up for someone in need of a seat, being a foreign, non menacing looking girl. Of course I get up myself, but can I tell other people to do it also?

I hardly witness people NOT get up for elderly people or pregnant women.

You can always ask them to get up for the person in need. Just try not to be offensive or pushy. If they don't, they're pigs, so just let it rest. If they do, thank them. There is a good chance they will feel embarrassed by the question as they realize they didn't do it out of their own initiative and do as you asked them.

Isn't it weird Merly - you are Dutch and haven't noticed this, the rest of the postings are from ex-pats who state that this is indeed a problem. Do you not find that strange?

First of all, I don't like the way you asked this question. It's.. how do I say it in english... in dutch it would be 'neerbuigend'. I suppose this would be right: Don't be so depreciatory.

Have you ever considered the fact that the 5-6 people that have posted here do not represent the entire ex-pat community? And the fact that not every dutch person is the same?

Reading these forums has opened an entirely new NL to me. It's like you are living in some sort of alternate universe where the NL is a dreadful place full of socially retarded people and what not.

Enough with the goddamn generalising already.
How can you poshibly say you don't like the way MonkeyNuts asked the question when you can't poshibly know how MonkeyNuts asked the question? Did you hear MonkeyNuts? You read what MonkeyNuts wrote and read it how you read it.

People/posters write what they feel according to their experiences here, whether they be negative or positive. Yes, there are many positive posts too if you bother to read other threads. Who's generalizing now... :roll:
Um, if you don't like it on these forums you could always leave...
fortuner
- 10421 posts
August 15, 2007 4:08:49 PM CEST

(Merly)
(MonkeyNuts)
And what question might that be Merly?

"So what DO you base your conclusions on - if not the forum-dwellers?"
MonkeyNuts own experiences? :?
monkeynuts
- 1415 posts
August 15, 2007 4:31:48 PM CEST

(Merly)
(MonkeyNuts)
And what question might that be Merly?

"So what DO you base your conclusions on - if not the forum-dwellers?"

Umm - let's think? What do I base my conclusions on. Come on Merly get real, what a ridiculous question (and asked twice)!

Do I really have to put it in black and white for you to come to the conclusion?

Conclusions are reached by one's own experience and by talking and interacting with other human beings.

Of course I don't just base my opinions on comments made on this forum - that would make me just plain bonkers!

I exist, live, work, shop and travel in Amsterdam. I glean my experiences from this interaction. My experiences, drawn by my own experiences and from others, have drawn me to the conclusions I have put down in this forum. Now which part of that pretty obvious statement would you like me to expand on?

I'm afraid I haven't got a link, chart or statistics to back this up.