Forums » Netherlands » Americans in the Netherlands

• pk400i

  
   

  January 22, 2009 11:49:19 PM CET

  HI I have been studying the issue of moving to the NL for a few years and have concluded that I don't have too many options if I cannot marry a Dutch citizen. I usually visit once or twice a year for a short long weekend. I am able to come over now for longer but would want to work for a couple of reasons, besides the cash flow, to learn more about the jobs and business climate and see if I can build on my background in catering and restaraunt management, yes knowing that this is very difficult but I have owned small food concessions in the USA, such as a sushi bar.
  
  If anyone can help me in my dream, please do.
  
  Cheers,
  PK400i
• 5318008

  
   

  January 23, 2009 5:02:31 PM CET

  
  

  pk400i (Jan 22 2009, 10:49 PM) said: > original post
  HI I have been studying the issue of moving to the NL for a few years and have concluded that I don't have too many options if I cannot marry a Dutch citizen. I usually visit once or twice a year for a short long weekend. I am able to come over now for longer but would want to work for a couple of reasons, besides the cash flow, to learn more about the jobs and business climate and see if I can build on my background in catering and restaraunt management, yes knowing that this is very difficult but I have owned small food concessions in the USA, such as a sushi bar.
  
  If anyone can help me in my dream, please do.
  
  Cheers,
  PK400i

  
  
  You're allowed to stay for up to 3 months without any sort of immigration hoops. Find an apartment to rent for the duration (maybe craigslist or kamernet, or you might even talk to an agent), and just fly on over.
  
  To stay longer would require applying for a residence permit, which might give you some trouble. I guess to actually try to start some sort of business setup during the 3 months might require a permit, as well. Sorry, I don't know anything about that.
  
  Another comment: a couple stays per year for a long weekend does not give you much of an idea of what it is like to live here (nor does 2-3 months, even, though that's a bit better). Just keep that in mind.
• pk400i

  
   

  January 23, 2009 6:45:22 PM CET

  Thank you for that, good to know that I can get my bearings. One thing I forgot to mention is that I did live outside of the USA for many years when I was younger for over 14 years, so certain
  differences in physicality as well as 'the way things are done' are not things that freak me out at all. I never miss things like the superbowl or certain fast foods or such products at all. Because I did without them back in the 70's. Things like customer service, I have found the Dutch to be super helpful. For example, on my last visit, I was lost trying to find the Brouwer hotel in Amsterdam, yet I was on some kind of street called Brouwer something. I asked an couple if they knew this hotel. They actually went back up to their flat, to look it up for me.
  
  Whenever I am in Holland, I just feel like I am in the right place.
  
  I am most comfortable, and the lifestyle of living and let live, is most suitable to me.
  
  
  

  5318008 (Jan 23 2009, 04:02 PM) said: > original post
  You're allowed to stay for up to 3 months without any sort of immigration hoops. Find an apartment to rent for the duration (maybe craigslist or kamernet, or you might even talk to an agent), and just fly on over.
  
  To stay longer would require applying for a residence permit, which might give you some trouble. I guess to actually try to start some sort of business setup during the 3 months might require a permit, as well. Sorry, I don't know anything about that.
  
  Another comment: a couple stays per year for a long weekend does not give you much of an idea of what it is like to live here (nor does 2-3 months, even, though that's a bit better). Just keep that in mind.

  
  
  
• 5318008

  
   

  January 23, 2009 7:02:16 PM CET

  
  

  pk400i (Jan 23 2009, 05:45 PM) said: > original post
  Things like customer service, I have found the Dutch to be super helpful.

  
  
  
  
  Money quote. I guess you have to learn some things for yourself.
  
  Sorry, but that truly is laughable. If anyone else reads this, they'll instantly agree.
• mousecanning

  
   

  January 23, 2009 8:11:28 PM CET

  
  

  5318008 (Jan 23 2009, 06:02 PM) said: > original post
  
  
  Money quote. I guess you have to learn some things for yourself.
  
  Sorry, but that truly is laughable. If anyone else reads this, they'll instantly agree.

  
  
  
  Ok, I don't mean to be rude, but seriously? The friendliness and customer service? No offense, but that is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard about this country. And let me state, for the record, that I am VERY (serious emphasis on very) happy here, but customer service and general friendliness is not what I would call an area of expertise for the Dutch. Gathering from your other posts I have a feeling that you have some strange idealistic utopian view of the Netherlands, and utopia it certainly is not, even if I consider it a generally great place to live. But my satisfaction has to do with a million factors that make up who I am, where I came from, my expectations, attitude, goals, lifestyle preferences, where I live now and with whom, ad infinitum, that my happiness here can be no measure of any one else's happiness here. Seriously, and meant respectfully, you might want to spend a more extended visit in this country and do so outside of the touristy areas of Amsterdam because most of those areas aren't predominantly culturally Dutch anyway. It might still be a great fit for you, but right now you seem like you are in the rose-colored glasses phase of being in love. Trust me, the love affair will end.
  
  Best of luck to you either way.
• 5318008

  
   

  January 23, 2009 8:25:39 PM CET

  
  

  mousecanning (Jan 23 2009, 07:11 PM) said: > original post
  Ok, I don't mean to be rude, but seriously? The friendliness and customer service? No offense, but that is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard about this country. And let me state, for the record, that I am VERY (serious emphasis on very) happy here, but customer service and general friendliness is not what I would call an area of expertise for the Dutch. Gathering from your other posts I have a feeling that you have some strange idealistic utopian view of the Netherlands, and utopia it certainly is not, even if I consider it a generally great place to live. But my satisfaction has to do with a million factors that make up who I am, where I came from, my expectations, attitude, goals, lifestyle preferences, where I live now and with whom, ad infinitum, that my happiness here can be no measure of any one else's happiness here. Seriously, and meant respectfully, you might want to spend a more extended visit in this country and do so outside of the touristy areas of Amsterdam because most of those areas aren't predominantly culturally Dutch anyway. It might still be a great fit for you, but right now you seem like you are in the rose-colored glasses phase of being in love. Trust me, the love affair will end.
  
  Best of luck to you either way.

  
  
  Thanks, MC, for so articulately expressing what I'd been suggesting.
  
  I guess it's good that he/she is looking into spending some 2-3 months here -- that's probably the best option at this point. No commitments.
• papasutra

  

  • 786 posts
   

  January 24, 2009 1:00:43 PM CET

  
  

  pk400i (Jan 22 2009, 11:49 PM) said: > original post
  HI I have been studying the issue of moving to the NL for a few years and have concluded that I don't have too many options if I cannot marry a Dutch citizen. I usually visit once or twice a year for a short long weekend. I am able to come over now for longer but would want to work for a couple of reasons, besides the cash flow, to learn more about the jobs and business climate and see if I can build on my background in catering and restaraunt management, yes knowing that this is very difficult but I have owned small food concessions in the USA, such as a sushi bar.
  
  If anyone can help me in my dream, please do.
  
  Cheers,
  PK400i

  
  
  
  Well PK400i...the only thing for you to do now is to pack up and move on over.
  
  The only way of knowing if NL is for you - on a more permanent basis - is to try it out. You will never know if you never try and if you never try you'll never forgive yourself eh?
  
  As previously mentioned by others above, the grass is not always greener on the other side. Indeed, there are "aspects" of Dutch life that went missing in US society a long, long time ago. These remaining aspects too, are continually being eroded by a changing socio-political NL landscape, rising costs and the strong euro.
  
  The quaintness of Amsterdam (from my perspective as an expat) gets old once you've lived there for an extended amount of time. I was there for 4 years and have a hard time believing that I held out that long. Survival instinct I suppose?
  
  Other expats love A'dam and other NL randstad cities for reasons perculiar or important to them on a personal level. If that works for you...great. Some expats come from lands/cities/towns which make A'dam seem like Shangri-La. Shangri-La it is not.
  
  Granted, the Dutch are quite amiable to tourists and visitors. The real issue for foreigners that wish to habitate on a permanent basis - is that once you're here for the long haul you better start thinking & acting like them. Or at least accept their more "acceptable" ways.
  
  And there's the rub.
  
  However, if you've already accepted Dutch ways as more acceptable - I guess you'll do just fine, given you're able to immigrate.
• pk400i

  
   

  January 24, 2009 7:00:56 PM CET

  Well I know that I disdain USA life and society. The rudeness and waste, I don't believe exists on the same scale. I appreciate the biking /walking foundation over the American car and disdain for public transportation and the love of the Americans to waste whenever they can. you should see them the brave americans, the weather is a little chilly so they must let their cars run while they wait on line in Dunkin Donuts for horrific coffee in their foam cups.
  
  America imo stands for waste and destruction of the planet.
  
  So how much worse off would i be?
  
  
  

  papasutra (Jan 24 2009, 12:00 PM) said: > original post
  Well PK400i...the only thing for you to do now is to pack up and move on over.
  
  The only way of knowing if NL is for you - on a more permanent basis - is to try it out. You will never know if you never try and if you never try you'll never forgive yourself eh?
  
  As previously mentioned by others above, the grass is not always greener on the other side. Indeed, there are aspects of Dutch life that went missing in US society a long, long time ago. These remaining "aspects" too, are continually being eroded by a changing socio-political NL landscape, rising costs and the strong euro.
  
  The quaintness of Amsterdam (from my perspective as an expat) gets old once you've lived there for an extended amount of time. I was there for 4 years and have a hard time believing that I held out that long. Survival instinct I suppose?
  
  Other expats love A'dam and other NL randstad cities for reasons perculiar or important to them on a personal level. If that works for you...great. Some expats come from lands/cities/towns which make A'dam seem like Shangri-La. Shangri-La it is not.
  
  Granted, the Dutch are quite amiable to tourists and visitors. The real issue for foreigners that wish to habitate on a permanent basis - is that once you're here for the long haul you better start thinking & acting like them. Or at least accept their more "acceptable" ways.
  
  And there's the rub.
  
  However, if you've already accepted Dutch ways as more acceptable - I guess you'll do just fine, given you're able to immigrate.

  
  
  
• Deleted Member

  

  • 7373 posts
   

  January 24, 2009 7:23:57 PM CET

  
  

  pk400i (Jan 24 2009, 07:00 PM) said: > original post
  Well I know that I disdain USA life and society. The rudeness and waste, I don't believe exists on the same scale. I appreciate the biking /walking foundation over the American car and disdain for public transportation and the love of the Americans to waste whenever they can. you should see them the brave americans, the weather is a little chilly so they must let their cars run while they wait on line in Dunkin Donuts for horrific coffee in their foam cups.
  
  America imo stands for waste and destruction of the planet.
  
  So how much worse off would i be?

  
  
  
  Once you've been nearly run over by a few bikes here, we'll talk, k?
  
  It's very nice here, but please don't kid yourself. The US isn't hell, just as the Netherlands isn't heaven. Once you have the basics -- your health, a job, a home and the love of friends or family -- the rest is up to you no matter where you live.
  
• mousecanning

  
   

  January 24, 2009 7:57:20 PM CET

  
  

  pk400i (Jan 24 2009, 06:00 PM) said: > original post
  Well I know that I disdain USA life and society. The rudeness and waste, I don't believe exists on the same scale. I appreciate the biking /walking foundation over the American car and disdain for public transportation and the love of the Americans to waste whenever they can. you should see them the brave americans, the weather is a little chilly so they must let their cars run while they wait on line in Dunkin Donuts for horrific coffee in their foam cups.
  
  America imo stands for waste and destruction of the planet.
  
  So how much worse off would i be?

  
  
  
  Yeah...please be careful using words like "disdain" and calling all American culture rudeness and waste. I love the Netherlands, but I also love the US. It is my home country, and there is absolutely nothing rude or intentionally wasteful about the people where I grew up. I've lived and traveled across the US, and in my opinion there are few things that can compare to the warmth and kindess that people treat you with. Maybe it is not so great where you live, but the US is an ENORMOUS country, each state with its own cultural differences. There are some states I would never move back to and wish I hadn't wasted my time in, there are other states I could have stayed in forever. So perhaps if an international move is not possible for you, you might find a nice place right there in the US that you claim you so disdain. As far as I can see, the last few years have served as a huge wake-up call for US culture and economics, that culture of spending and greed, and most people are looking forward to the possibilities that have been opened up with our new presidency. Yes, our, not your, because I am still a US citizen, and always plan to be. We'll just have to wait and see if those promises are fulfilled. Just remember to be careful when making enormous generalizations about people, because I for one am very proud to be an American living in Amsterdam, and not just another Dutch person.
  
  By the way, CW, I almost got run over by a little old man on a scooter today who was making an illegal crossing in front of me on the bicycle path. It's not just the cyclists who will run you over, watch out for senile old people too!
• papasutra

  

  • 786 posts
   

  January 24, 2009 8:04:15 PM CET

  
  

  pk400i (Jan 24 2009, 07:00 PM) said: > original post
  Well I know that I disdain USA life and society. The rudeness and waste, I don't believe exists on the same scale. I appreciate the biking /walking foundation over the American car and disdain for public transportation and the love of the Americans to waste whenever they can. you should see them the brave americans, the weather is a little chilly so they must let their cars run while they wait on line in Dunkin Donuts for horrific coffee in their foam cups.
  
  America imo stands for waste and destruction of the planet.
  
  So how much worse off would i be?

  
  
  
  OK, now I get it. You seem to be an American disenchanted with the American way of life. How novel if not tragic.
  
  As I said before - if you want to immigrate for the Dutch biking, public transportation and coffee - your ivory white towered destiny awaits you.
• mkitchell

  
   

  January 24, 2009 8:34:10 PM CET

  Hi PK, we have quite a few commonalities so I will give this a shot. I too lived overseas as a child, and yes, this does help me adjust here. I also was totally fed up with living in the US, and in many ways I also disdain American culture. Of course, part of me still loves my country.
  
  The bad news is, while you can come for a three month visit, I do not see how you can stay here. You have to marry and EU citizen, get sponsored for a job or start a business. While unemployment remains low here, no one will hire you in a food-related job. And its not like the States here, you cannot work under the table.
  
  Coming for three months is a good idea, but even that will not be enough. Its not as perfect here as you think, nor as bad as some of the resident cranks make it out to be. Like anything else, its what you makeit . If you want to get a great experience that remains manageable and fun, do not move to some small town. I assume you would want to move to Amsterdam. It would be the best for your cultural transition, ability to find a job, etc. The city is full of expats and you can speak English most places.
  
  There are also some left-wing American expats/exiles in Amsterdam.
  
  However, I have to remind you, its going to be hard for you to move here permanently.
  
  
• 5318008

  
   

  January 24, 2009 10:25:45 PM CET

  
  

  pk400i (Jan 24 2009, 06:00 PM) said: > original post
  Well I know that I disdain USA life and society. The rudeness and waste, I don't believe exists on the same scale. I appreciate the biking /walking foundation over the American car and disdain for public transportation and the love of the Americans to waste whenever they can. you should see them the brave americans, the weather is a little chilly so they must let their cars run while they wait on line in Dunkin Donuts for horrific coffee in their foam cups.
  
  America imo stands for waste and destruction of the planet.
  
  So how much worse off would i be?

  
  
  If you really want to get to generalizations, Americans are 1000x less rude than the Dutch. The Dutch look at Americans and think they are fake, because of all the niceties and smiling. The Dutch are quite direct, blunt, and yes, at times, rude. Customer service here sucks. You haven't had enough experience.
  
  Yes, American car culture is pretty disgusting. It's not a result of a culture of wastefulness, though, it's a result of the fact that there's so much space, and the majority of the infrastructure was built between the time that cars were invented and the time that cars' impact on the environment was discovered. Sure, you can take many to task with the lack of desire to change, but also the mainstream opinion on that is changing rapidly. And there are plenty of places in the US where the general population thinks as you do on the issue; maybe not where you currently live, but there are plenty of places.
  
  I can testify that everywhere I've lived in the US has a better recycling program than Amsterdam. For as environmentally conscious as the Dutch are reputed to be, it is pretty disgusting.
  
  The rightwing nutjobs are in power here. The unique policies the Dutch have are quickly washing up. The state of free speech is more of a joke here than under the Bush administration. NL has some of the lowest marks for privacy rights in all of the western world.
  
  Don't get me wrong, I love Amsterdam, and the Netherlands is a great country. But Utopia, it is not. There are a lot of things NL does better than US. I dare say there are a lot of things US does better than NL, too. You might love living here, but from what I've heard, your perspective is a bit naive, at the moment. It also sounds like you do not live in one of the better parts of the US.
  
  I've lived here for 1.5 years, now. I came here with a totally different image of the place than I have now. I have no doubt that, after spending more time here, I would/will have an even more evolved view (part of that being the constant evolution of the city/country itself). I also have a different view of the US than when I left. It's hard to put myself back in the shoes of when I left, but I think I was feeling quite a bit like you are. I slowly realized, though, that many of the faults that I attributed to the US, and not the NL, were in fact also faults in the NL. I also realized that some of the things that I thought were great about the NL were not as profoundly wonderful as I had once thought, and could be seen quite closely approximated in the proper regions of the US. (Bicycle culture, "tolerance", environmental consciousness, etc.)
• ouloveit1

  

  • 4310 posts
   

  January 24, 2009 11:56:29 PM CET

  
  

  pk400i (Jan 22 2009, 10:49 PM) said: > original post
  HI I have been studying the issue of moving to the NL for a few years and have concluded that I don't have too many options if I cannot marry a Dutch citizen. I usually visit once or twice a year for a short long weekend. I am able to come over now for longer but would want to work for a couple of reasons, besides the cash flow, to learn more about the jobs and business climate and see if I can build on my background in catering and restaraunt management, yes knowing that this is very difficult but I have owned small food concessions in the USA, such as a sushi bar.
  
  If anyone can help me in my dream, please do.
  
  Cheers,
  PK400i

  
  
  
  If you want to get a more balanced view of life in The Netherlands .. do PM me.
  
  Welcome!
• Deleted Member

  

  • 7373 posts
   

  January 25, 2009 10:19:19 AM CET

  
  

  ouloveit1 (Jan 24 2009, 11:56 PM) said: > original post
  If you want to get a more balanced view of life in The Netherlands .. do PM me.
  
  Welcome!

  
  
  
  Why? Seems to me that everyone is being very balanced here.
  
  Try reading the posts for once.
• 5318008

  
   

  January 26, 2009 3:10:39 PM CET

  
  

  canuckywoman (Jan 25 2009, 09:19 AM) said: > original post
  Why? Seems to me that everyone is being very balanced here.
  
  Try reading the posts for once.

  
  
  Agreed. ouloveit1 is either too lazy to read, or trolling.
• cloggieking

  
   

  January 26, 2009 8:38:00 PM CET

  Try Boulder Colorado prior to moving to another continent, it's a liberal place with plenty of biking.
• pk400i

  
   

  February 2, 2009 10:00:05 PM CET

  Thanks Kitchell and all, I will take your word for it and hope that someday I can come over for longer. The problem with moving out west is that it will be even harder to visit Amsterdam, lol.
  
  I am trying to get a job that will be the first step.
  
  Meanwhile, I check flights for my next visit...
  
  
  

  mkitchell (Jan 24 2009, 07:34 PM) said: > original post
  Hi PK, we have quite a few commonalities so I will give this a shot. I too lived overseas as a child, and yes, this does help me adjust here. I also was totally fed up with living in the US, and in many ways I also disdain American culture. Of course, part of me still loves my country.
  
  The bad news is, while you can come for a three month visit, I do not see how you can stay here. You have to marry and EU citizen, get sponsored for a job or start a business. While unemployment remains low here, no one will hire you in a food-related job. And its not like the States here, you cannot work under the table.
  
  Coming for three months is a good idea, but even that will not be enough. Its not as perfect here as you think, nor as bad as some of the resident cranks make it out to be. Like anything else, its what you makeit . If you want to get a great experience that remains manageable and fun, do not move to some small town. I assume you would want to move to Amsterdam. It would be the best for your cultural transition, ability to find a job, etc. The city is full of expats and you can speak English most places.
  
  There are also some left-wing American expats/exiles in Amsterdam.
  
  However, I have to remind you, its going to be hard for you to move here permanently.

  
  
  
• dutchhelp

  
   

  February 6, 2009 2:36:18 PM CET

  Your Dream?
  
  Your best dreams can rapidly become your worst nightmare here.
  
  If you are not getting married to someone with an income above 1400 euros a month.
  
  If you are not a knowledge migrant with an income above 50,000 euros a month and your company is willing to apply for you work permit.
  
  If you do not know the language, customs, and know what common sense is.
  
  If you like tasty food.
  
  If you like non judgemental people.
  
  If you like multitasking in the workforce.
  
  If you like freedom.
  
  If you like democracy.
  
  If you like shopping past 6pm on most nights.
  
  If you like excellent health care.
  
  If you would like help with a flat tire.
  
  And there is more...
  
  If you answer yes to any of these question, then of course coming to The KINGDOM of The Netherlands will become your worst nightmare.
  
  BTW, I'm Dutch/American
• pk400i

  
   

  February 6, 2009 6:17:36 PM CET

  Dude I assure you, In my case, I do not find anything special about America. From what I gather from this forum, most if not all of the complaints are very petty and of little importance, to me at any rate. Every single complaint I see here is the same in America, and worse.
  
  But I hope to post from Amsterdam soon.
  
  Peace,
  PK
  
  

  dutchhelp (Feb 6 2009, 01:36 PM) said: > original post
  Your Dream?
  
  Your best dreams can rapidly become your worst nightmare here.
  
  If you are not getting married to someone with an income above 1400 euros a month.
  
  If you are not a knowledge migrant with an income above 50,000 euros a month and your company is willing to apply for you work permit.
  
  If you do not know the language, customs, and know what common sense is.
  
  If you like tasty food.
  
  If you like non judgemental people.
  
  If you like multitasking in the workforce.
  
  If you like freedom.
  
  If you like democracy.
  
  If you like shopping past 6pm on most nights.
  
  If you like excellent health care.
  
  If you would like help with a flat tire.
  
  And there is more...
  
  If you answer yes to any of these question, then of course coming to The KINGDOM of The Netherlands will become your worst nightmare.
  
  BTW, I'm Dutch/American

  
  
  
• dutchhelp

  
   

  February 6, 2009 6:55:40 PM CET

  
  

  pk400i (Feb 6 2009, 05:17 PM) said: > original post
  Dude I assure you, In my case, I do not find anything special about America. From what I gather from this forum, most if not all of the complaints are very petty and of little importance, to me at any rate. Every single complaint I see here is the same in America, and worse.
  
  But I hope to post from Amsterdam soon.
  
  Peace,
  PK

  
  
  
  
  How long have you lived in America?
• Deleted Member

  

  • 7373 posts
   

  February 6, 2009 9:28:29 PM CET

  
  

  pk400i (Feb 6 2009, 06:17 PM) said: > original post
  Every single complaint I see here is the same in America, and worse.

  
  
  
  Uh huh, and you want to move here WHY then?
  
  Some things like getting a job and learning the language are not petty when both are elusive...