Hello there,
I am actually looking forward to apply for the permanent residence and dutch nationality. If somebody could share his/her knowledge on the questions that I have.
I have been living and working here in NL for over 5 years as a KM. Last year I changed my job and I have now one year contract till August, after which it will hopefully change into permanent.
1) Keeping in mind my employment details (currently one year contract that has seven months to go), can I apply for the permanent residence?
2) Will I have to attach last 3 months salary slips, employer's declaration and current job contract with the application or will it be more/different than that?
3) Is applying for the dutch permanent residence is by any means different from applying for the EU permanent residence?
4) Is it the same application form and in the end I will get two cards (both Dutch & EU)?
5) Can I apply for the permanent residence and nationality at the same time?
6) I heard that getting permanent residence probably takes about 3 months while the nationality takes near 9 months. So I would want to be on the safe side by first getting the permanent residence. Is that a good idea?
7) If I send my original inburgering certificate to IND while applying for the permanent residence then how will I apply for the citizenship at the gemeente without the original inburgering proof?
Regards...
1. you can. You need to have an income at the moment of the application.
2. just that.
3/4. One cards serves both. same application.
5. Yes, you can, as long as you have another RP covering the priod of waiting.
6. This idea is a good one, yet it costs ~400 eur extra. Permanent RP may take up to 6 month. (I know examples of both 3 month and up to 6 month happening in 2011) Naturalization may take anything from 4 month up to 12 (for the IND only) Again, one need to have a valid RP to cover the period.
7. You do not send originals anywhere. Gemeente would make a copy of it for 5 eur for the IND. Naturalisation process starts at Gemeente, so they make a copy of it again for free. Cheers.
Thankyou igor for your reply.
I have downloaded the applicaton form (Aanvraag of wijziging Verblijfsvergunning regulier voor onbepaalde tijd) from the IND website and on one (Bijlage Bewijsstukken inkomen M35D) of the pages it states what documents are required as proof of income under different categories.
The first one is:
Als u of uw referent een arbeidsovereenkomst heeft die op het moment van de aanvraag minimaal 1 jaar geldig is; of Als u (de vreemdeling) arbeid in loondienst gaat verrichten (in het kader van een EU-actieprogramma of een Internationale Overeenkomst waarbij Nederland partij is)
– Uw huidige arbeidsovereenkomst(en)
– De volledig ingevulde en ondertekende Bijlage(n) werkgeversverklaring (niet ouder dan 3 maanden)
– Loonstroken over de afgelopen 3 maanden
Alleen als u structureel meer verdient dan uit uw arbeidsovereenkomst blijkt (bijvoorbeeld door overwerk)
– Loonstroken over de afgelopen 12 maanden
and the second one states:
Als u of uw referent een arbeidsovereenkomst heeft die op het moment van de aanvraag minder dan 1 jaar geldig is
– Uw huidige arbeidsovereenkomst(en), waaruit blijkt dat u over werk beschikt
– De volledig ingevulde en ondertekende Bijlage(n) werkgeversverklaring (niet ouder dan 3 maanden)
– Over de afgelopen 3 jaar:
- alle salarisspecificaties; en
- alle jaaropgaven; en
- alle arbeids- en uitzendovereenkomst(en); en
- toekenningsbesluit(en) en uitkeringsspecificatie(s)
and then there are a few more categories....
Is it not that this second one applies in my case?
Regards...
flevoland said:
and the second one states:
Als u of uw referent een arbeidsovereenkomst heeft die op het moment van de aanvraag minder dan 1 jaar geldig is
– Uw huidige arbeidsovereenkomst(en), waaruit blijkt dat u over werk beschikt
– De volledig ingevulde en ondertekende Bijlage(n) werkgeversverklaring (niet ouder dan 3 maanden)
– Over de afgelopen 3 jaar:
- alle salarisspecificaties; en
- alle jaaropgaven; en
- alle arbeids- en uitzendovereenkomst(en); en
- toekenningsbesluit(en) en uitkeringsspecificatie(s)
and then there are a few more categories....
Is it not that this second one applies in my case?
Regards...
I was just about to step in and correct igor on this. Yes, the second case applies to you if your contract is valid for at least the coming six months (so be fast!), and if you earned more than €1094 a month (as a single person) every month for the past three years. So you have to send all your salary slips, yearly income statements (jaaropgaven), and contracts for the past three years.
I can add from the experience of my clients that the naturalization process does tend to go faster if you have a permanent residence permit to start with. Because if you have a work-related residence permit, the IND stops the process halfway through to double-check that you still have a job, and therefore that your work-related residence permit is still valid. If you have a PR they don't have to do that-- they can simply assume that it is still valid, since it is unconditional.
So, if someone is applying for the naturalization then it is not a requirement to have the permanent residence already or to appy for the permanent residence at that time.
Applying for the naturalization means getting the permanent residence card automatically after the naturalizatioin process is complete?
Can one apply for PR and/or start the process of naturalization at the gemeente with all the four individual exam results (1 praktijkexamen & 3 centrale examens) and without having the eventual inburgering diploma/certificate yet?
Regards...
flevoland said:
So, if someone is applying for the naturalization then it is not a requirement to have the permanent residence already or to appy for the permanent residence at that time.
Applying for the naturalization means getting the permanent residence card automatically after the naturalizatioin process is complete?
Can one apply for PR and/or start the process of naturalization at the gemeente with all the four individual exam results (1 praktijkexamen & 3 centrale examens) and without having the eventual inburgering diploma/certificate yet?
Regards...
1. True. All you need is a valid permit (non temp. purpose like short term visa) for the processing time. Naturalisation has nothing to do with a permanent residence permit. Both of them require similar things, yet being conceptually different notions.
2. Naturalisation is a process of acquiring citizenship. Permanent residence permit - is merely a permit to stay indefinitely. What you mean by your question is if you can ask for an ID card (proof of your identification with nationality stated there). The answer is - just like in any other country - yes.
3. No.
The diploma will be asked for any of the application mentioned above. The Gemeente / IND could not care less if you have passed 4 or 10 exams. There are condition to be fulfilled, and one of them says: "diploma / certificate / .... " (all sorts of them could apply) and this is to be checked - not the amount of exams passed (Gemeente may not even know what those are) if any at all.
I had my last exam on 17th January and if it takes a month before the inburgering certificate is ready to be picked up then on/after 15th February, I'll have less than 6 months left in my current job contract. So, I don't if I'll be eligible to apply for PR or naturalization after that.
Avocado says that I'll need to provide employment related proofs for the last 3 years. That is a lot. Although, I think that IND knows exactly what and where have I been working in NL.
Regards...
flevoland said:
I had my last exam on 17th January and if it takes a month before the inburgering certificate is ready to be picked up then on/after 15th February, I'll have less than 6 months left in my current job contract. So, I don't if I'll be eligible to apply for PR or naturalization after that.
Avocado says that I'll need to provide employment related proofs for the last 3 years. That is a lot. Although, I think that IND knows exactly what and where have I been working in NL.
Regards...
OK, let us try another time
Naturalisation request does not need you to provide any data in regards to your employment / income / ... It simply does not have such condition to fulfill ... so, as long as you have another permit (type I) for the processing time (12 month would be best) - you are free to file an application. The other thing, of course, if the IND would be curiose to ask about you current employment situation in the middle of the process
(might as well not) - yet - there is a chance that nobody is going to ask.
3 years worth of salary slips are needed for the premanent card too - not for the naturalisation.
good luck.
My current KM permit is till 31-Oct-2012. So if I apply let's say before the end of february then I'll have 8 months left before my current permit expires. Will that be enough for naturalization processing? Regards...
flevoland said:
My current KM permit is till 31-Oct-2012. So if I apply let's say before the end of february then I'll have 8 months left before my current permit expires. Will that be enough for naturalization processing? Regards...
The naturalisation may take up to 12 month in IND only. Feel free to add another month for the Gemeente to process the papers and another ... (depends on your Gemeente) X weeks the Gemeente to invite you to the naturalisation ceremony.
There are cases when the process took 4 month all together, ... yet, you do not want to count on it 100%.
You do have an option though to ask for an extension of your current KM permit (up to 6 month prio the expiration of the exisiting one) which will also require the proof of your employement (not sure if that will also require it to be valid for another 12 month or not). When you get that (KM permits are processed much quicker) you may apply for naturalisation ...
I've just spoken to a lawyer for assistant from a renowned law firm. He says that I can apply for the PR as long as I have a valid KM permit, have been living and working here for 5+ years without any gaps and I fulfil the salary criteria based upon my age. That's it.
He says that it does not matter how long is my current job contract valid for as long as it is valid at the time of applying.
He also says that I need to attach only last 3 months salary/job details.
And he says that I can apply now without inburgering certificate as long as I will forward it to IND within a month time. They will be willing to wait a while before making the final decision on the application.
So, who do I follow now?
Regards...
flevoland said:
To apply for the KM permit extension, I'll have to pay the fee and attach all the documents which are required for PR permit (apart from only one which is inburgering certificate). So, why not apply for the PR instead of KM entension then?
Regards...
I got a bit lost in the above text but ... the difference between the PR and the KM is that the PR required that you have lived here 5 years straight and the new requrement is that you pass the Dutch test.
You also have to have a Work Contract at that moment that has at least 1 year left on it. After you get the PR .. you can take any job at all - no KM permit needed or you could just not work and live off your savings. Of course, because it is permanent ... if you lose you job you are entitled to the same uitkerring etc as any Dutch citizen. They only thing you cannot do is vote for the Prime Minister ... but everything else is just like you are Dutch.
With the KM permit - this is a Working permit/[temporary] Residence Permit this is still tied to a company sponsoring you and of course, you don't have to pass the Dutch test.
Since this is a Temporary work permit .. unemployment benifits are quite limited and if you quit or in way lose your job .. you have either 28 days (if you quit) or 3 months to find another KM job ... you will have to leave the country.
If you have the option .. I think the best choice would be the PR permit.
ouloveit3, I know exactly what the difference is between KM and PR... this never was my question on this forum...
flevoland said:
I've just spoken to a lawyer for assistant from a renowned law firm. He says that I can apply for the PR as long as I have a valid KM permit, have been living and working here for 5+ years without any gaps and I fulfil the salary criteria based upon my age. WRONG That's it.
He says that it does not matter how long is my current job contract valid for as long as it is valid at the time of applying. WRONG
He also says that I need to attach only last 3 months salary/job details.
And he says that I can apply now without inburgering certificate as long as I will forward it to IND within a month time. REALLY? I think they will take your money and then decline your request because you need not send in this proof when you sent in the application. You can take your chances though.
They will be willing to wait a while before making the final decision on the application.
So, who do I follow now?
DUDE, you need to follow yourself and use your own common sense.
That lawyer is goofy. There is no salary reguirement to gaining the Permanent Residence Permit? DUH? Where did that come from?
- You have to prove you have lived her 5 years straight (Tax records will do)
- You have to provide proof that you have passed the Dutch test (Inburgering .. which includfes the Dutch test)
- You have to have a current Work Contract that extends at least 1 more year.
The rest of the stuff they ask for is simple.
But you don't have to take his word or mine. All you have to do is download the form and it tells you what you must do.
You need to download the form -
Aanvraag of wijziging Verblijfsvergunning regulier voor onbepaalde tijd
and stop talking to this character .. because it says what is required RIGHT THERE in the form for anyone to read.
ouloveit3,
Common sense does not mostly work when it comes to dealing with IND. If you see earlier posts in this topic, then you would know that I've already discussed that form's name and that 1 year term, and much more...
Well, then I don't understand why you are asking the lawyer for that bad information ... and asking us 'who to follow' ... if you have already read the form and ... you know what to do?
It is really a very very simple thing - just fill out the form and be done with it.
(But hey, if everytime I try to answer your question .. you say you already know the answer ... then ahh (shrugs) I give up.) 
The only reason why I can't ignore that lawyer's view is that his firm applied and successfully got all my visas/permits so far...
ouloveit3 said:
But you don't have to take his word or mine. All you have to do is download the form and it tells you what you must do.
You need to download the form -
Aanvraag of wijziging Verblijfsvergunning regulier voor onbepaalde tijd
If we go by the conditions in the form it also says
"Als u of uw referent een arbeidsovereenkomst heeft die op het moment van
de aanvraag minder dan 1 jaar geldig is
– Uw huidige arbeidsovereenkomst(en), waaruit blijkt dat u over werk beschikt
– De volledig ingevulde en ondertekende Bijlage(n) werkgeversverklaring (niet
ouder dan 3 maanden)
– Over de afgelopen 3 jaar:
- alle salarisspecificaties; en
- alle jaaropgaven; en
- alle arbeids- en uitzendovereenkomst(en); en
- toekenningsbesluit(en) en uitkeringsspecificatie(s)"
What does this mean? The form does not strictly say you need to have contract for more than 1 year.
flevoland said:
The only reason why I can't ignore that lawyer's view is that his firm applied and successfully got all my visas/permits so far...
Dear Flevoland,
Just like any lawyer would tell you - the responsibility is to be yours anyway, whether you follow your lawyer's advice or the forum's. The lawyer will take the cut and would be willing to do what you ask for regardless of the result. In fact - the lawyer would only benefit from filing another application ... as one is to be paid by the hour. You will not be able to sue the lawyer if the application is rejected.
In fact, what you can as well do - give a call to IND, or even visit one of there sites and talk to them directly. A lot of the IND employees are extremely helpful and responsive (personal experience).
flevoland said:
The only reason why I can't ignore that lawyer's view is that his firm applied and successfully got all my visas/permits so far...
But .. you don't need a lawyer to fill in allthese forms. You have to have some self assurance in order to live in another country and navigate the immigration stuff. If not ... you will eventually get burned.
I didn't hire a lawyer and I came here on a Working permit in 2000 and have never used one for immigration issues. I did sit down and read the forms etc .. that's why I said - this is what you need to do. It's a study .. that you need to undertake in order to be successful.
As the above poster said .. the lawyer can tell you whatever (and charge you) but if something falls through .. it's gonna fall on your head. Now .. that's the truth.
The only time you need a lawyer .. is if something exceptional, out of the norm is going on where there is no provision in the forms or you have already been denied .. so you have to appeal etc. These are all messy situations that are not ordinary and indeed .. you would need a lawyer.
But if you are just doing regular stuff like applying for a KM permit, applying for a Perm. res permit etc .. these things are all straight forward.
And this lawyer is giving you bad information .. you can read this for yourself ... so I would not trust him. He's not so bright. (or somethings not right ..)
expatican said:
ouloveit3 said:
But you don't have to take his word or mine. All you have to do is download the form and it tells you what you must do.
You need to download the form -
Aanvraag of wijziging Verblijfsvergunning regulier voor onbepaalde tijd
It is located under the Bijlage Bewijsstukken inkomen:
Als u of uw referent een arbeidsovereenkomst heeft die op het moment van
de aanvraag minimaal 1 jaar geldig is; of
Als u (de vreemdeling) arbeid in loondienst gaat verrichten (in het kader van
een EU-actieprogramma of een Internationale Overeenkomst waarbij Nederland ...
Which means:
If you or your sponsor has a contract at the time of
application that is valid for at least one year, or
If you (the stranger) work as an employee (within
an EU action plan or an international agreement to which the Netherlands
party)door overwerk) ....
So they are saying you have to have a work contract for at least 1 one year at the time of the application.
Aside from this .. one of the resident lawyers here on Expatica pointed this out to me a couple of months ago when I told someone else here that 'it did not matter'.
The thing is I didn't notice this because I had a Perm. Work Contract in hand when I applied for a Perm Residence permit .. so I just glazed over that as I knew I was covered.
But yes, you have to have a work contract in hand that is good for at least 1 more year .. at the moment you apply for a Perm. Res. Permit.
Like I said though .. you need to sit down and read the forms.
Print out the whole long thing and translate it line by line until it comes clear to you. Take notes .. and it will all make sense after a while and you will know want to do.
Don't take my word for it though - see for yourself.
ouloveit3 said:
expatican said:
ouloveit3 said:
But you don't have to take his word or mine. All you have to do is download the form and it tells you what you must do.
You need to download the form -
Aanvraag of wijziging Verblijfsvergunning regulier voor onbepaalde tijd
It is located under the Bijlage Bewijsstukken inkomen:
Als u of uw referent een arbeidsovereenkomst heeft die op het moment van
de aanvraag minimaal 1 jaar geldig is; of
Als u (de vreemdeling) arbeid in loondienst gaat verrichten (in het kader van
een EU-actieprogramma of een Internationale Overeenkomst waarbij Nederland ...
Which means:
If you or your sponsor has a contract at the time of
application that is valid for at least one year, or
If you (the stranger) work as an employee (within
an EU action plan or an international agreement to which the Netherlands
party)door overwerk) ....
So they are saying you have to have a work contract for at least 1 one year at the time of the application.
Aside from this .. one of the resident lawyers here on Expatica pointed this out to me a couple of months ago when I told someone else here that 'it did not matter'.
The thing is I didn't notice this because I had a Perm. Work Contract in hand when I applied for a Perm Residence permit .. so I just glazed over that as I knew I was covered.
But yes, you have to have a work contract in hand that is good for at least 1 more year .. at the moment you apply for a Perm. Res. Permit.
Like I said though .. you need to sit down and read the forms.
Print out the whole long thing and translate it line by line until it comes clear to you. Take notes .. and it will all make sense after a while and you will know want to do.
Don't take my word for it though - see for yourself.
I think you are confusing people here. The question was about the part of the form which says which documents are needed if your contract is less that 1 year. The form no where strictly says you can apply only if you have a minimum contract for one year.
"Als u of uw referent een arbeidsovereenkomst heeft die op het moment van
de aanvraag minder dan 1 jaar geldig is
– Uw huidige arbeidsovereenkomst(en), waaruit blijkt dat u over werk beschikt
– De volledig ingevulde en ondertekende Bijlage(n) werkgeversverklaring (niet
ouder dan 3 maanden)
– Over de afgelopen 3 jaar:
- alle salarisspecificaties; en
- alle jaaropgaven; en
- alle arbeids- en uitzendovereenkomst(en); en
- toekenningsbesluit(en) en uitkeringsspecificatie(s)"
