Forums » Netherlands » Discuss Dutch Culture

• win

  

  • 33 posts
   

  December 14, 2011 12:44:47 AM CET

  canuckywoman said:
  

  win said:
  pepec, I am not opposed to changing the tradition. Like you wrote it has been This was my last one for 2011. Goodbye all and have a nice new year!

  Okay, I get it. You're a shoe polish manufacturer, aren't you?

  
  There you have me, Canuckje. Yes! Yes! I confess! I am a shoe polish manufacturer! And my biggest customer is Sinterklaas, who is a slave driver in disguise. White slaves are worth a lousy 500 bucks nowaday, half of the price of a healthy black. On the other hand, whites are much easier to catch than blacks. So I capture the whities and polish them black, and sell them to the old man for 800 each. Now you know. (Sorry for leaving the discussion. I thought that we had finished).
• win

  

  • 33 posts
   

  December 14, 2011 12:46:44 AM CET

  ouloveit3 said:
  Btw WIN .. the Indian swastika is a mirror image of the Nazi swastika .. again two different things .. but I take your meaning. :)

  
  Yeah, well. To be precise, the Nazi thing usually turns right, with the not-Nazi ones it depends on where, when, and why. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika for a dazzling summary . But I suppose that the fools who take an Indian swastika for a Nazi symbol don't know the difference between left and right anyway. :-)
• win

  

  • 33 posts
   

  December 14, 2011 12:48:48 AM CET

  mrfook said:
  

  I wonder what Martin Luther King or Malcolm X would have made of this.

  
  And Jesus C-h-r-i-s-t, whose image was reshaped into a tall white Kaukasian hunk. Why don't they do something about that? Is Zwarte Piet more important than Jesus C-h-r-i-s-t?
• win

  

  • 33 posts
   

  December 14, 2011 12:57:23 AM CET

  canuckywoman said:
  

  Well, neither of you are parents of young children so it's a non-issue, isn't it? You've never had to think about it. Neither have I, but I have a right to believe what I believe. And speak up about it.

  
  Sure. A right to believe what you believe. But it is your lack of arguments - you even write proud that you don't feel like arguing - which makes your belief kind of weightless.
  
  When I started to join the yearly discussions about Zwarte Piet on this forum years ago, my sons still believed in Sinterklaas. Now they are both on the middelbare school. The youngest volunteered as a Zwarte Piet at school, last year (2010), like 2 or 3 dozen others - no: not just whities. They were "hired" and that way they earned money for charity stuff. He looked gorgeous as a Zwarte Piet, and his eyes had the same expression of total happiness as when he got a new bike a year earlier. I believe that in a way he had become one of his own heroes. But h-e-l-l: it took hours of shrubbing to get his pig colour back!
  
  My eldest now and then reads over my shoulder when I type my Zwarte Piet messages. He is a bright and intellectual guy, who reads and writes English with more ease than I do. He finds this discussion funny, and having a talent for logic points at the lack of counter arguments from the anti-blacks, and their stunning cognitive dissonance.
  
  Yes Canuckje! You are absolutely right that it is a non-issue, though not just for the childless but for everybody. For me there is no need to explain to my sons that Zwarte Piet has nothing to do with racism. But I do use the discussion as an illustration of the relativity of cultural values which we experience as absolute, because our cultural framework shapes our consciousness.
  
  I don't expect you to look over your fence - not yet. I just want you to accept that there is one.
  
  
  This post was edited by win at December 14, 2011 1:13:21 AM CET
• Deleted Member

  

  • 5427 posts
   

  December 14, 2011 8:51:28 AM CET

  canuckywoman said:
  

  Well, neither of you are parents of young children so it's a non-issue, isn't it?

  .

  
  You are not a parent of young children either. Whats your point?

• Deleted Member

  

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  December 14, 2011 11:00:07 AM CET

  It explains your apathy.
  
  In my case, my son's father was black, and not the best role model. I guess I'm more sensitive to this because, as he was raised in a caucasian household, I sought out positive role models of colour, and can imagine how I would feel if I was faced with this dilemma.
  
  My son did encounter ZPs when he was here a few years back and was pretty disgusted.
  
  But despite what Ouloveit thinks, this is not an issue of "neo-colonialism". That implies that expats are invading the Netherlands. It's an issue of 21st century globalization of culture and media. What happens in the Netherlands no longer stays in the Netherlands.
  
  Anyways, I'm out of here. You're entitled to your opinion and I to mine.
• tuliper

  

  • 80 posts
   

  December 14, 2011 11:02:17 AM CET

  Is Holland the only country that ruins Christmas with a black Piet? I think also the dutch part of Belgium particiates in this holiday ruiner

   

• fortuner

  

  • 10421 posts
   

  December 14, 2011 11:15:10 AM CET

  canuckywoman said:
  Anyways, I'm out of here.

  Hey, that's ouloveit's line...

  

• Deleted Member

  

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  December 14, 2011 11:28:39 AM CET

  fortuner said:
  

  canuckywoman said:
  Anyways, I'm out of here.

  Hey, that's ouloveit's line...

  

  Sorry.

   

  Anyways, I'm out of here©

   

• win

  

  • 33 posts
   

  December 14, 2011 12:05:24 PM CET

  tuliper said:
  

  Is Holland the only country that ruins Christmas with a black Piet? I think also the dutch part of Belgium particiates in this holiday ruiner

   

  
  Zwarte Piet has nothing to do with Christmas, and neither has Sinterklaas. In fact, they both travel back tot Madrid the 6th of December. Anyway, yours is a fine example of how prejudice comes in.
• peony

  

  • 790 posts
   

  December 14, 2011 12:09:13 PM CET

  win said:

  But I do use the discussion as an illustration of the relativity of cultural values which we experience as absolute, because our cultural framework shapes our consciousness. 
  
  

  
  And this is where you are wrong - my background has nothing to do with slavery/rascism towards black people, so it cant really be that I am applying "my cultural values" on this topic.

   

  You also mentioned Jesus C-h-r-i-s-t as comparison to Zwarte Piet. I am not religious, so that doesn't bother me on that level, but I just wanted to point out to you that he is religious figure while Zwarte Piet is merely a cultural tradition. Culture tends to evolve fairly fast (while religion barely evolves) and as I said in ST. Nicholas tradition - it already has several times and I am sure same reactions were heard last time it changed.

   

  What I find amazing is that Dutch are fine with Zwarte Piet and will defend his "happiness" (and refuse to see that he offends some people) while at the same time they have problem with burkas/hijabs/mosque calling for prayer. Could it be that the only free expression is approved for "white Dutch" traditions/religions?

  
  This post was edited by peony at December 14, 2011 12:09:33 PM CET
• win

  

  • 33 posts
   

  December 14, 2011 10:32:09 PM CET

  peony said:
  

  win said:

  But I do use the discussion as an illustration of the relativity of cultural values which we experience as absolute, because our cultural framework shapes our consciousness. 
  
  

  
  And this is where you are wrong - my background has nothing to do with slavery/rascism towards black people, so it cant really be that I am applying "my cultural values" on this topic.

   

  You also mentioned Jesus C-h-r-i-s-t as comparison to Zwarte Piet. I am not religious, so that doesn't bother me on that level, but I just wanted to point out to you that he is religious figure while Zwarte Piet is merely a cultural tradition. Culture tends to evolve fairly fast (while religion barely evolves) and as I said in ST. Nicholas tradition - it already has several times and I am sure same reactions were heard last time it changed.

   

  What I find amazing is that Dutch are fine with Zwarte Piet and will defend his "happiness" (and refuse to see that he offends some people) while at the same time they have problem with burkas/hijabs/mosque calling for prayer. Could it be that the only free expression is approved for "white Dutch" traditions/religions?

  
  Cultural background:
  What I meant to say, Peony, is that Dutch cultural background is one in which the mythological helper of Sinterklaas is not seen as racist, while yours is. You write that you "are not applying "[your] cultural values" on this topic." But you are, since you think Zwarte Piet is racist. And that is exactly what I mean with one's own cultural framework shaping one's consciousness.
  Or like Hamlet says: "Nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." (He adds somewhat bitterly: "To me it is a prison.") "Zwarte Piet is not racist, it is your thinking which makes him racist, while my thinking makes him a childeren's heroe.
  
  Headscarves etc.: good point. You are right: some people are offended by headscarves. I have had discussions similar to the Zwarte Piet stuff. People who take offence to headscarves are stupid a-s-s-e-s, that's my humble opinion. Other people on the contrary are offended by women showing their hair. Or by half naked ladies on billboards. Hardcore vegetarians might be offended by butcher shops with meat visible in the shop windows.
  What are we going to do about it? Turn this country into a hyper prudish politically correct place where everybody is walking on his toes in order not to hurt feelings here and there? Or?
  Nothing. Just be tolerant. The more tolerance, the more freedom.
  
  We have seen a few things:
  1. Zwarte Piet is not meant as racist.
  2. Dutch take offence at the accusation of being racist in the Zwarte Piet discussion.
  3. Dutch black and browns generally are not bothered by Zwarte Piet; in fact they love him, also in the former colonies.
  4. People who do take offence are generally non-Dutch whities with a guilt complex because of what some of their ancestors did to some of the ancestors of blacks and browns in their country, AND those who simply misinterpret Zwarte Piet, because they haven't spent five minutes in order to find out what it is all about.
  
  So there is a tiny minority of Dutch citizens who feel offended because of their perception of Zwarte Piet. There are millions of Dutch who really feel that Zwarte Piet should be like his name: zwart. Besides: they believe that black is beautiful. If I belonged to this tiny minority, I would act some modesty in my moral judgement about Zwarte Piet.
  
  
• win

  

  • 33 posts
   

  December 14, 2011 10:40:11 PM CET

  canuckywoman said:
  It explains your apathy. In my case, my son's father was black, and not the best role model. I guess I'm more sensitive to this because, as he was raised in a caucasian household, I sought out positive role models of colour, and can imagine how I would feel if I was faced with this dilemma. My son did encounter ZPs when he was here a few years back and was pretty disgusted. But despite what Ouloveit thinks, this is not an issue of "neo-colonialism". That implies that expats are invading the Netherlands. It's an issue of 21st century globalization of culture and media. What happens in the Netherlands no longer stays in the Netherlands. Anyways, I'm out of here. You're entitled to your opinion and I to mine.

  
  I can understand your son's reaction. It's a cultural thing. You write about searching "positive role models of colour", and I must say I have no clue what you are talking about, but I am sure that this is a key for understanding the origins of your disgust and that of others for Zwarte Piet.
  
  Why Oulovit and I call it neocolonialism? not because expats are invading the Netherlands, but because hystories repeats itself: whities know what's best for brownies and blackies. It's not the last that are offended, but the whites. And they think that blacks and browns should feel offended as well, or at least should be made aware of this.
  
  And that, dear Canuckchen, is plain ridiculous.
  
  Be well on your side of the fence.
  
  
• Franklin

  

  • 142 posts
   

  December 14, 2011 10:52:44 PM CET

  win said:
  We have seen a few things:

  White Dutch people have seen a few things:   (there: fixed it for you  ) 

  
  1. Zwarte Piet is not meant as racist.
  2. Dutch take offence at the accusation of being racist in the Zwarte Piet discussion.
  3. Dutch black and browns generally are not bothered by Zwarte Piet; in fact they love him, also in the former colonies.
  4. People who do take offence are generally non-Dutch whities with a guilt complex because of what some of their ancestors did to some of the ancestors of blacks and browns in their country, AND those who simply misinterpret Zwarte Piet, because they haven't spent five minutes in order to find out what it is all about.
  
  

• tuliper

  

  • 80 posts
   

  December 14, 2011 11:28:09 PM CET

  I think if this was in the USA where I come from, you know a multiracial melting pot, I would feel very protective of all my African American friends' feelings as if this kind of "Holiday" was in America it would just never gel in this modern world (knowing how the dutch and their flunkies) support antiquated and racist idea's. I do not care for this kind of racial abuse by the servants of the queen
• win

  

  • 33 posts
   

  December 15, 2011 1:58:17 PM CET

  tuliper said:
  I think if this was in the USA where I come from, you know a multiracial melting pot, I would feel very protective of all my African American friends' feelings as if this kind of "Holiday" was in America it would just never gel in this modern world (knowing how the dutch and their flunkies) support antiquated and racist idea's. I do not care for this kind of racial abuse by the servants of the queen

  
  But this is the Netherlands and not the USA. There really is no need for the browns and blacks living here to be protected by whities. They can handle things themselves and they can make their own decisions. They came voluntarily to live in Holland, most of them love Zwarte Piet as well, and also in their former countries full of black and brown people Sinterklaas arrives with Zwarte Pieten - link provided in an earlier post. Why? Because they haven't been poisoned by racist ideas about Zwarte Piet being a black slave.
• Franklin

  

  • 142 posts
   

  December 15, 2011 2:47:15 PM CET

  win said:
  But this is the Netherlands and not the USA. There really is no need for the browns and blacks living here to be protected by whities. They can handle things themselves and they can make their own decisions. 

   

  You've got some twisted misconceptions regarding the US.   

• win

  

  • 33 posts
   

  December 15, 2011 2:56:41 PM CET

  Franklin said:
  

  win said:
  But this is the Netherlands and not the USA. There really is no need for the browns and blacks living here to be protected by whities. They can handle things themselves and they can make their own decisions. 

   

  You've got some twisted misconceptions regarding the US.   

  
  I spose so. I must have been brainwashed by the white privilege post from last week. :-)
• tuliper

  

  • 80 posts
   

  December 15, 2011 4:28:33 PM CET

  BINGO! Win you loose, folks we found ourselves a class act racist! Holland Welcomes you!
• win

  

  • 33 posts
   

  December 15, 2011 5:18:14 PM CET

  tuliper said:
  BINGO! Win you loose, folks we found ourselves a class act racist! Holland Welcomes you!

  
  You mean: I loose because if this was in the US where you come from, you would feel very patronizing toward your African American friends?
  This isn't the US, my friend, not yet because indeed there are many MacDonalds and Starbucks nowaday. As far as I know the browns and the blacks don't want to be protected and patronized by whities. And actually I doubt if the Americanbrowns and blacks would be so helped by white privilege people's protection.
  
  You know, Tuliper, I kind of like you because you show humor. But even my cat knows that you are bluffing.
  This post was edited by win at December 15, 2011 5:18:44 PM CET
• tuliper

  

  • 80 posts
   

  December 15, 2011 5:44:45 PM CET

  Purely your juvenile response is to envoke a "I am smarter than thou" knock down provocative discussion because any idiot including those who have never traveled to the usa could make that ignorant remark and feel so protected in his little cracker world here on the net. have fun provoking people you miserable so n so
• win

  

  • 33 posts
   

  December 15, 2011 6:49:00 PM CET

  tuliper said:
  Purely your juvenile response is to envoke a "I am smarter than thou" knock down provocative discussion because any idiot including those who have never traveled to the usa could make that ignorant remark and feel so protected in his little cracker world here on the net. have fun provoking people you miserable so n so

  
  Wow. You show some temperament, tuliper. But what exactly is it what provokes you? Because I don't get it.
  
  And what does your "I am smarter than thou" remark mean in the light of your neocolonialistic attitude toward Dutch browns and blacks?
  
  
• peony

  

  • 790 posts
   

  December 16, 2011 10:26:36 AM CET

  win said:

  This isn't the US, my friend, not yet because indeed there are many MacDonalds and Starbucks nowaday. As far as I know the browns and the blacks don't want to be protected and patronized by whities. And actually I doubt if the Americanbrowns and blacks would be so helped by white privilege people's protection.

  Knowledge is power, win, and for americans to "know"/"aknowledge" what happened with slavery in their country is good. Recognizing that something was done wrong and then trying to fix it is a positive thing. You keep on talking like that action is "patronising" and shows "white priviledge" and like only people who did something bad would be sensitive towards issue of rascism.

  So if Zwarte Piet was done with, in your words - that would show that (white) Dutch are patronising and protecting the black people. Its like knee jerk reaction for not doing something because then you have to deal and aknowledge the real problem.

   

  
   

• philly_girl

  

  • 75 posts
   

  December 19, 2011 4:04:50 PM CET

  Well Sinter Klaas was based on a real life religious bishop. That seems to me fact based although traditions vary and progress with time. Zwarty Piet has been from what i have seen and read at times been a demon/devil enslaved/shackled by the Bishop showing relgions power. Then Zwarty Piet morphed into house slaves dressed in all the house finery to improve the look of the "help" in the house. Now today they are Helpers. As far as i can tell there is no real life basis for most of these depictions except for the fact that the church did keep slaves as servants. But we have all learned world wide not to do that any more. It is time for Sinter Klaas to become an equal opportunity employer and stop discriminating against all other races who wish to become heros and helpers. Yes i am an American; No i in no way represent everyone in my country or their views or feelings on the matter only little ole me. I am a Native American so yup i know full well about discrimination and oppression. And we should all know better. Be happy and proud of who and what you are no matter what colour. Pretending to represent other races is offensive not just to those your mis-represent but even to White Dutchies.
• win

  

  • 33 posts
   

  December 19, 2011 8:46:06 PM CET

  philly_girl said:
  Well Sinter Klaas was based on a real life religious bishop. That seems to me fact based although traditions vary and progress with time. Zwarty Piet has been from what i have seen and read at times been a demon/devil enslaved/shackled by the Bishop showing relgions power. Then Zwarty Piet morphed into house slaves dressed in all the house finery to improve the look of the "help" in the house. Now today they are Helpers. As far as i can tell there is no real life basis for most of these depictions except for the fact that the church did keep slaves as servants. But we have all learned world wide not to do that any more. It is time for Sinter Klaas to become an equal opportunity employer and stop discriminating against all other races who wish to become heros and helpers. Yes i am an American; No i in no way represent everyone in my country or their views or feelings on the matter only little ole me. I am a Native American so yup i know full well about discrimination and oppression. And we should all know better. Be happy and proud of who and what you are no matter what colour. Pretending to represent other races is offensive not just to those your mis-represent but even to White Dutchies.

  
  I agree with the last. Problem is though that some non-cloggies stubbornly think that Zwarte Piet is representing a race, in particular what is wrongfully called the black race - there ain't such a thing as "the black race"! Or the white race! Or the yellow race! There is only one race, and that is the human race! These stubborn non-cloggies even believe that Piet represents the "brown" race, though obviously Zwarte Piet is black like a moonless night, and not brown at all. But of course Zwarte Piet doesn't represent a race. Just like Sinterklaas he is a mythological character, surrounded by mysteries. Is he an orphan who works for Sint? A former slave freed by Sint? A chimney sweeper? A devil? No-ones knows, no-one cares. But he triggers childeren's fantasies, that's for sure. And that is one reason that he is their hero - the other being that he brings them presents.
  
  I kind of liked what you write about equal opportunities. From one side it is a shame that non-blackened persons don't get the chance to have this great job which Zwarte Piet has. Happily, children don't really mind. They just paint their faces black and think they have become Zwarte Piet themselves. Black is just a great and magic colour for Piet's skin. On the other hand Sinterklaas is the wrong role model for elderly men. Should people his age really climb on roofs in the middle of the night? And why does it always turn out to be a man? Isn't Sinterklaas the way he is plain sexist? I suppose that he is the proof that this still is a man's world. Yeah. They should do something about that.