win said:
Yeah, unpaid. Just like Sinterklaas, that is. They both have voluntary jobs.
And Piet has to do exactly what Sint says, but that doesn't work the other way around. Slavery (oh sorry: "unpaid helper"). 
win said:
Piet has his own horse: http://goo.gl/ALdkq he has fancy clothes and is very happy: http://goo.gl/PlvHDWhere's the "happy" part? I see a picture of an "unpaid helper" carrying out his duties; he's not smiling though. The accompanying text also doesn't describe him as "happy". Wishful thinking on your part?
Expatica: please revise this goddddaaaaaammmnnn quoting system (ha: like that'll ever happen...) 
Franklin said:
win said:
Yeah, unpaid. Just like Sinterklaas, that is. They both have voluntary jobs.And Piet has to do exactly what Sint says, but that doesn't work the other way around. Slavery (oh sorry: "unpaid helper").
win said:
Piet has his own horse: http://goo.gl/ALdkq he has fancy clothes and is very happy: http://goo.gl/PlvHD
Where's the "happy" part? I see a picture of an "unpaid helper" carrying out his duties; he's not smiling though. The accompanying text also doesn't describe him as "happy". Wishful thinking on your part?
Expatica: please revise this goddddaaaaaammmnnn quoting system (ha: like that'll ever happen...)
You have to do all that yourself... 
win said:
There is an overall picture that both men cooperate very well, each having their own specialities and skills.
Yep: one issues orders and the other carries them out. Obviously this works out more beneficially for one than the other.
canuckywoman said:
Nah, it's not bubbba. I can tell!
No Obama posts. 
win said:
Franklin, If you enlarge this one http://goo.gl/PlvHD, you can see him smile. Unlike his unpaid boss. But perhaps the old man is smiling behind his beard. There is an overall picture that both men cooperate very well, each having their own specialities and skills. In an earlier post I forgot the link to the wonderful entrance by balloon: http://goo.gl/2b2eW Who would still deny that Piet has a heaven of a job?
And why is it so important to you to show that Zwarte Piet is happy? Its a fictional character, he is not happy or sad since he doesn't exist. What does exist is a representation of him and that is a cartooned black man who is servant/helper to St. Nicholas.
Do you know that original "helper" of St. Nicholas was devil himself (portraited in black colour) who was enslaved by St. Nicholas? Later on that traditional quirk was replaced by zwarte piet, I wonder why?
Franklin said:
canuckywoman said:
Nah, it's not bubbba. I can tell!No Obama posts.
Among other things!
peony said:win said:
Franklin, If you enlarge this one http://goo.gl/PlvHD, you can see him smile. Unlike his unpaid boss. But perhaps the old man is smiling behind his beard. There is an overall picture that both men cooperate very well, each having their own specialities and skills. In an earlier post I forgot the link to the wonderful entrance by balloon: http://goo.gl/2b2eW Who would still deny that Piet has a heaven of a job?
And why is it so important to you to show that Zwarte Piet is happy? Its a fictional character, he is not happy or sad since he doesn't exist. What does exist is a representation of him and that is a cartooned black man who is servant/helper to St. Nicholas.Do you know that original "helper" of St. Nicholas was devil himself (portraited in black colour) who was enslaved by St. Nicholas? Later on that traditional quirk was replaced by zwarte piet, I wonder why?
win said: I showed you how Piet was depicted in 1840/50. He doesn't act like a slave, he doesn't look like a slave, and the guy is clearly happy with what he is doing. So it's slave fantasies which bother you, my friend. You see slaves everywhere.
None of this is true. You showed us old drawings of Piet where he is not smiling, and he's fulfilling his role of slave (sorry: '"unpaid helper" who's unable to quit his job'). You seem so scared by the concept of slavery that you're willing to bend the truth into a pretzel to protect the virtue of your countrymen.
win said: It is you who wrote: "Zwarte Piet was 100 years ago slave to St. Nicholas." Why not substantiate this statement, Franklin?
I didn't write that.
Franklin said:win said: It is you who wrote: "Zwarte Piet was 100 years ago slave to St. Nicholas." Why not substantiate this statement, Franklin?D-a-m-n it, my post dissapeared!!! THe gist of it was that I wrote that he was a slave and that I can prove it to the same level that win can prove that he (zwarte piet, not win) is happy and that all children love him. Some (white) Dutch people are similar to missionaries win mentiones which can decide which traditions are acceptable and know best what other people want and what makes them happy. For me Zwaret Piet is not (only) about rascism, but about keeping up something that offends portion of population.
This post was edited by peony at December 12, 2011 9:21:24 AM CET
win said:
pepec, I am not opposed to changing the tradition. Like you wrote it has been This was my last one for 2011. Goodbye all and have a nice new year!
Okay, I get it. You're a shoe polish manufacturer, aren't you?
Agreed. I don't know why the folks in this post worry about this issue.
It is a non-issue. I must know 20 Black Dutch people .. and not a one of them has a problem with ZP ... UNLESS their thinking gets contaminated by the foreigners who to try to convinced them that this is a negative portrayal of Black people. Like .. they are too stoopid to realize 'what this means.' DUH!
Otherwise .. not a one of them has a problem with ZP.
I get so sick of the foreigners trying to clone their negative racial experiences on to this culture .. when they are so different.
I am Black American and the ZP thingy here ... and the 'Black Face' issues in America are two entirely different situations.
WIN said it best though .. it is neo-colonialism.
ouloveit3 said:
Btw WIN .. the Indian swastika is a mirror image of the Nazi swastika .. again two different things .. but I take your meaning. :)
I thought it was Egyptian.
There was 'Debat op 2' a couple of weeks ago. The dutch woman defending ZP came across a bit thick but harmless.And the black guy saying ZP is racist was intelligent enough to be doing something else IMO. Am not talking out of my hat here, I was going on anti-racism demos / protests 30 years ago and also anti-sexist ones too. Though some of you will think it highly amusing: I am a feminist. :) I hate discrimination and injustice. I can't be bothered getting very upset about what is really quite a trivial issue,cos,IMO, there are much more urgent matters to deal with. Governments are perfectly happy for us to spend ages arguing/discussing cos it takes attention from what we the people should really be fighting for. Governments aren't racist when they send young people to go fight thier corporate wars. Black people I know don't seem to give two hoots about ZP either.
I wonder what Martin Luther King or Malcolm X would have made of this.
Well, neither of you are parents of young children so it's a non-issue, isn't it? You've never had to think about it. Neither have I, but I have a right to believe what I believe. And speak up about it.
ouloveit3 said:I get so sick of the foreigners trying to clone their negative racial experiences on to this culture ..
"Auslander raus", eh? 
