hminkema said:
I appreciate your dislike of the Dutch word 'neger', yet I hope that time will come when you understand that the cause of your dislike is all-American.
She's not American.
hminkema said:It is American sensitivities and American lack of understanding that has contaminated the Dutch use of the neutral term 'neger'
Whooo. That's a good one.
hminkema said: Besides, why should Dutch change their language *only* because Americans feel bad about certain words, mostly because of their own guilty American history?
hminkema said:
I appreciate your dislike of the Dutch word 'neger', yet I hope that time will come when you understand that the cause of your dislike is all-American. The Dutch word has been used, and is still used in a neutral way to denominate black people, or Afro-American people, or any which political correct word you presently choose to denominate 'people of color' (a term that I find offensive). To illustrate my point: in the 1970s I was taught at primary school about Martin Luther King (in a positive way of course) and he was called a 'neger' and the people whose rights he defended were called 'negers'. Nothing offensive or racist about that - on the contrary. It is American sensitivities and American lack of understanding that has contaminated the Dutch use of the neutral term 'neger' (meaning 'black' in perfectly neutral Latin). Of course you are totally free and even welcome to use other words more to your liking. But you must understand that your MIL in life is probably only smiling because he knows that *you* and other expats object to the word; not because he finds that he's really doing something wrong. Furthermore, you misunderstand that the word 'neger' was considered fine '40 years ago'. It is still considered fine by many Dutch people in their thirties, forties and up. Their awareness that Americans take offense does not change their own attitude to what they consider a perfectly neutral word. Besides, why should Dutch change their language *only* because Americans feel bad about certain words, mostly because of their own guilty American history? The Dutch have had disappointing experiences with the names used for immigrant workers. First they were called 'gastarbeiders' (guest workers). Because this word was used more and more in a pregnant way (meaning 'poor guest workers' or 'illiterate guest workers' or 'parasite guest workers') (because language follows thought) the need arose for a more neutral term. Next we had 'medelanders' (a pun on the word 'Nederlanders', adapted to mean 'fellow Nederlanders'). Then we had 'allochtonen', a word that has also lost is neutrality. The most neutral term today is probably 'immigranten'. In fomal publications and institutions the word 'vreemdelingen' is used (as in 'Vreemdelingendienst') but the literal meaning ('strangers') is not so neutral. For some time 'Nieuw Nederlanders' was in fashion. A Dutch fringe political party proposed the word 'biculturals'. Both were not succesful. A top Dutch encyclopedia used 'kleurling' (colorling) throughout the nineties, but also that word is not considered neutral any longer. The Dutch have learned that any word may become negative once the common conception changes to a negative one. When the negative connotation is not there, or when it has become lost (such as in 'Surinamer') the word becomes perfectly neutral again. Now, any introduction of a new word smells of political hypercorrectness and will invoke negative connotations from the get to. Bottom line: don't judge other people's word usage from the perspective of your own language's connotations. It is just as narrow-minded to assume that Dutch who use the word 'neger' must be (latent) racists than to assume that people with a dark skin must be sun worshippers.
This is just so dripping with White Privilege I don't know where to start.
Also, I can only see one American participating in the thread I think: and they don't care. Drop your rabidly anti-American ideas, it might allow you to open your eyes a bit better.
Imo the point is that several Germanic languages have a word that translates in English as "negro", but sounds like the N-word. Due to that the word "neger" is becoming less and less acceptable. Because of that I would never use it myself. I've been reading a lot about this the last days and I noticed exactly the same discussion in other Germanic speaking countries. For example this one in Sweden: http://www.thelocal.se/37620/20111128/
And one from Switzerland: http://www.englishforum.ch/family-matters-health/115802-should-word-n-ggr-used-swiss-german.html
canuckywoman said:
Ah, great. We've force win out of retirement. Win, you are entitled to your opinion, but you can't TELL us what he is if there is no consensus even amongst the Dutch. Yours is just one opinion amongst many.
pepec said:ZP is a mythical figure, but in the 19th century the figure was revamped based on racial stereotypes by Jan Schenkman. If he hadn't done that we would probably have a ZP like the Swiss Schmutzli:
win said:
canuckywoman said:
Ah, great. We've force win out of retirement. Win, you are entitled to your opinion, but you can't TELL us what he is if there is no consensus even amongst the Dutch. Yours is just one opinion amongst many.
I missed you too, canuckywoman. And I agree with you: mine is just one opinion, just like every other opinion is. So no-one is entitled to call Zwarte Piet racist.
I never said I missed you.
Faulty conclusion. I can say "I am of the opinion that Zwarte Piet is racist".
korrok said:
Just a quick observation. If the Dutch are so proud of the ZP tradition, and it's DEFINITELY not racist...why is there not a single Piet to be seen in Schiphol at the moment? (I was there browsing around yesterday when coming back from the UK) Plenty of Sints, no Piet.
canuckywoman said:
Well, at least he LOOKS like he's been down a chimney.
Yeah, where's his big red lips and nappy hair like the Dutch (supposedly non-racist) version? 
hminkema said:
Ah, I am a White Supremacist and rabidly anti-American. Barking dogs don't bite, and the value of your non-existent arguments is zero. Have a nice Christmas.
Activity for the day:
Learn the difference between white supremacy and white privilege.
http://academic.udayton.edu/race/01race/whiteness05.htm
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html
http://www.****.com/priv.html
http://whitepriv.blogspot.com/
http://matadornetwork.com/bnt/how-travel-made-me-confront-white-privilege/
These should provide a good starting point.
With this in mind, re-read your earlier post.
canuckywoman said:
He won't read those links, korrok. People like that rarely read to learn, merely to reinforce their prejudices.
If you have any sense of humor, you will be able to appreciate the unintended irony in your own statement.
"People like that do this and don't that". Talking about prejudices. Ha!
