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• breezerb06

  
   

  November 9, 2008 11:00:11 AM CET

  If my dutch is correct, I just read an article on the hetparool.nl website that stated that CDA leader Pieter van Geel seriously wants to end the 30 year old "gedoogbeleid" for all coffeeshops in Holland. First it's the smoking ban in cafes, then they're closing the windows in the red light district and replacing the hookers with clothes (YabYum R.I.P.), and now this talk of closing all of the coffeeshops. What the hell is going on with you Dutchies and the liberal policies you folks are so famous for? Last month the city of Roosendaal closed their coffeeshops and I now fear that the conservative VVD and CDA parties are seriously going to try to make this happen. I can't tell you how much of a mistake this could become. The fact that magic mushrooms are now illegal sucks but the coffeeshops??? Cheese and tulips just don't compare to weed and hookers. Check out this story:
  
  http://www.parool.nl/parool/nl/265/Gezondh...ffeeshops.dhtml
• Deleted Member

  

  • 7373 posts
   

  November 9, 2008 11:08:37 AM CET

  Yawn...whatever are you tourists going to do now?
  
  I hear Madurodam is very nice.
  
  
• tiggerinadam

  

  • 3 posts
   

  November 9, 2008 2:00:43 PM CET

  
  

  breezerb06 (Nov 9 2008, 10:00 AM) said: > original post
  First it's the smoking ban in cafes, then they're closing the windows in the red light district and replacing the hookers with clothes (YabYum R.I.P.), and now this talk of closing all of the coffeeshops. What the hell is going on with you Dutchies and the liberal policies you folks are so famous for?

  
  
  
  
  It's a trend I've noticed over the past few years in NL......
  
  Are there some nasty bad people doing naughty things like breaking into cars in a particular neighbourhood? If so, stop people parking their cars there. Sorted! (and I'm speaking from experience on this one ; came to the car one morning and found them putting up No Parking signs. No warning notification or anything. And certainly not closing or monitoring the junkie drop-in centre 50m away where the culprits were).
  
  Are there drug runners coming across the border to the first Dutch town they find with a coffeeshop? Then shut the coffeeshops in that town. Sorted! Yes, of course that will solve the problem!
  
  
  
  If the Dutch authorities are faced with a problem, they'll ALWAYS take the option that results in them not having to get off their backsides and actually deal with the true cause - far too much like hard work!
• oddsock

  

  • 3 posts
   

  November 9, 2008 4:22:09 PM CET

  
  

  tiggerinadam (Nov 9 2008, 01:00 PM) said: > original post
  If the Dutch authorities are faced with a problem, they'll ALWAYS take the option that results in them not having to get off their backsides and actually deal with the true cause - far too much like hard work!

  
  
  
  And the irony is that that's exactly the reason why the gedoogbeleid was introduced in the first place. Make it semi-legal, then we don't have to bother prosecuting anybody anymore. It was never due to some kind of liberal epiphany, contrary to the historical revisionism that gets bandied about.
  
• mkitchell

  
   

  November 9, 2008 4:26:08 PM CET

  Mushrooms are totally available.
• emilio416

  
   

  November 9, 2008 6:19:43 PM CET

  Meanwhile, organised and less organised crime syndicates are still making fortunes growing and distributing (and, not forgetting: whitewashing in real estate) all kinds of drugs, in particular weed and speed...Regularly they liquidate competitors and, of course, the killers are almost never found... except when they are really small fry and "only" got paid a few K's for the job...
• utakubeta

  
   

  November 10, 2008 10:59:48 AM CET

  
  

  emilio416 (Nov 9 2008, 06:19 PM) said: > original post
  Meanwhile, organised and less organised crime syndicates are still making fortunes growing and distributing (and, not forgetting: whitewashing in real estate) all kinds of drugs, in particular weed and speed...Regularly they liquidate competitors and, of course, the killers are almost never found... except when they are really small fry and "only" got paid a few K's for the job...

  
  
  
  But how much has said crime been controlled by requiring permits, and taxes paid on these crimes?
  I'm no fan of drug use myself, but allowing the soft stuff, in limited quantities does seem to have the overall drug issues under control.
  
  I also think closing the 'smart' shops next month really stupid.
  They are talking about tourism going DOWN in Amsterdam and they have no clue why...
  here's a hint guys, it's NOT (all) economy related.
  
  They have taken the uniqueness out of Amsterdam.
  
  Without the red light and the coffee shops, LITERALLY I can not think of O N E reason to even visit this country. I'd rather goto Germany or France, where they're at least kinky, and the food is goooooood!
  
  Once they outlaw pot (omfg hoe STOM!) that very profitable tax revenue steam will EVAPORATE, and police and court costs will SKYROCKET! which means the government will go into a deficit REALLY fast!
  
  I really, R E A L L Y hope this breaks the coalition!
  
  I'd still horrified that PvDA even entered into this foustian bargain to begin with. WHAT was the head of PVdA paid to do this?!
• win

  

  • 33 posts
   

  November 10, 2008 12:38:57 PM CET

  
  

  oddsock (Nov 9 2008, 04:22 PM) said: > original post
  And the irony is that that's exactly the reason why the gedoogbeleid was introduced in the first place. Make it semi-legal, then we don't have to bother prosecuting anybody anymore. It was never due to some kind of liberal epiphany, contrary to the historical revisionism that gets bandied about.

  
  
  That's not right.
  In 1971 a government committee ("commissie Hulsman") concluded that 1. marihuana was a quite harmless substance, and 2. that the state should interfere as little as possible with what people want to consume, and what not.
  Interestingly, they found in the American liquor ban from the 20's an example of how a ban on a drug might work out contraproductively.
  It was also understood that by tolerating the soft drugs business, it could be isolated from the hard drugs business far more easily. And it worked out quite well.
  
  So: yes, there was a liberal force behind the introduction of the gedoogbeleid, and it was only because of treaties with oher countries that marihuana wasn't officially legalized.
  But in the first place it was the understanding that marihuana simply is not a great danger to society.
  
  This is good reading (in Dutch):
  
  gedoogbeleid
  
  
• emilio416

  
   

  November 10, 2008 1:10:42 PM CET

  I would like to add to Win's post that the situation changed dramatically since 1970 (almost 40 years ago!).
  Through seed selection and modern cultivation methods, today's Dutch cannabis is considered the best in the world. It cannot be compared with the rather harmless stuff of 1970. It is very strong, even addictive and absolutely harmful for the brains. People who want to close the coffeeshops do have valid arguments, although I'm not denying the attraction of coffeeshops and RLD to foreign tourists.
• sunnfun

  

  • 23 posts
   

  November 10, 2008 1:54:12 PM CET

  
  

  utakubeta (Nov 10 2008, 10:59 AM) said: > original post
  But how much has said crime been controlled by requiring permits, and taxes paid on these crimes?
  I'm no fan of drug use myself, but allowing the soft stuff, in limited quantities does seem to have the overall drug issues under control.
  
  I also think closing the 'smart' shops next month really stupid.
  They are talking about tourism going DOWN in Amsterdam and they have no clue why...
  here's a hint guys, it's NOT (all) economy related.
  
  They have taken the uniqueness out of Amsterdam.
  
  Without the red light and the coffee shops, LITERALLY I can not think of O N E reason to even visit this country. I'd rather goto Germany or France, where they're at least kinky, and the food is goooooood!
  
  Once they outlaw pot (omfg hoe STOM!) that very profitable tax revenue steam will EVAPORATE, and police and court costs will SKYROCKET! which means the government will go into a deficit REALLY fast!
  
  I really, R E A L L Y hope this breaks the coalition!
  
  I'd still horrified that PvDA even entered into this foustian bargain to begin with. WHAT was the head of PVdA paid to do this?!

  
  
  
  
  "They are talking about tourism going DOWN in Amsterdam and they have no clue why..."
  
  Could not agree more!!
• emilio416

  
   

  November 10, 2008 2:57:13 PM CET

  
  

  utakubeta (Nov 10 2008, 10:59 AM) said: > original post
  Without the red light and the coffee shops, LITERALLY I can not think of O N E reason to even visit this country. I'd rather goto Germany or France, where they're at least kinky, and the food is goooooood!
  
  I really, R E A L L Y hope this breaks the coalition!
  
  I'd still horrified that PvDA even entered into this foustian bargain to begin with. WHAT was the head of PVdA paid to do this?!

  
  
  
  Maybe you could read just ONE of the many tourist brochures about The Netherlands. You obviously didn't and know nothing about culture or outdoor life! What an idle life! No idea about, to name a few things, Dutch arts, monuments, ceramics, silver, Jewish historic relics, architecture, water defences, birdlife, walks, cycling and sailing possibilities...let alone paintings! I really pity you if your life revolves around the RDL and grass...
  Btw, of course Germany and France are fine countries to visit!
  
  Imo the problem of the eventual closing of (some) coffeeshops will not break the coalition. It is a storm in a glass of water. Probably to your surprise, I'm as horrified as you that PVDA entered into this coalition instead of forming another one with GroenLinks and SP... The party will pay for it in the next elections by losing still more seats...
  
• utakubeta

  
   

  November 10, 2008 5:19:33 PM CET

  
  

  emilio416 (Nov 10 2008, 02:57 PM) said: > original post
  Maybe you could read just ONE of the many tourist brochures about The Netherlands. You obviously didn't and know nothing about culture or outdoor life! What an idle life! No idea about, to name a few things, Dutch arts, monuments, ceramics, silver, Jewish historic relics, architecture, water defences, birdlife, walks, cycling and sailing possibilities...let alone paintings! I really pity you if your life revolves around the RDL and grass...
  Btw, of course Germany and France are fine countries to visit!
  
  Imo the problem of the eventual closing of (some) coffeeshops will not break the coalition. It is a storm in a glass of water. Probably to your surprise, I'm as horrified as you that PVDA entered into this coalition instead of forming another one with GroenLinks and SP... The party will pay for it in the next elections by losing still more seats...

  
  
  
  my insulting today aren't we?
  the reality is people DO come here for the illicit things.
  Yes there's loads of museums, theaters,etc, but they're mostly in Dutch - ind if you know the language, or the curators are feeling kind enough to entertain english, and treat you like some kind of retarded child - not very good for tourism...
  I rather liked gietoorn (I know horrible spelling), Rotterdan, den haague, etc.
  
  you might want to learn to read as well, as i do N O T EVER! indulge in the illicit pleasantries you must be doing while reading this.
  
  I was merely pointing out that this is an insane move... and I would remind you that the cda did NOT say SOME... THEY SAID ALL!!!!!
• win

  

  • 33 posts
   

  November 10, 2008 5:36:32 PM CET

  
  

  emilio416 (Nov 10 2008, 01:10 PM) said: > original post
  I would like to add to Win's post that the situation changed dramatically since 1970 (almost 40 years ago!).
  Through seed selection and modern cultivation methods, today's Dutch cannabis is considered the best in the world. It cannot be compared with the rather harmless stuff of 1970.

  
  
  Yes, and that's why it was imported from northern Africa and the middle east from the 70s up to the 90s.
  
  
  

  
  It is very strong, even addictive and absolutely harmful for the brains.

  
  
  I think it is not as dramatic as that. Addiction percentage is still very low, about 6 percent, and hardly physical. It is not harmful to the brain (except when used excessively), but just affects memory. Stopping usually means that memory starts functioning again like it used to. Average use of marihuana is not harmful at all - except for the tobacco involved!
  When compared to legal drugs like alcohol and tobacco and the number of problems caused, cannabis stands out as a much "softer" drug, while the first two can be labeled "hard drugs" considering their effect.
  
  
  

  
  People who want to close the coffeeshops do have valid arguments, although I'm not denying the attraction of coffeeshops and RLD to foreign tourists.

  
  
  
  I don't see many valid arguments. As it turns out, closing all coffeeshops will not affect the number of users, but they become criminalized, hard and soft drugs worlds mix up, criminality will rise, and the quality becomes unstable, meaning that you don't know what you get.
  Legalizing marihuana is the only way for government to take control over the quality, with minimum and maximum percentages of THC. But legalizing won't happen as long as the US and the rest of Europe don't cooperate.
  
  Nevertheless, I doubt if all coffeeshops really are going to be closed. The mayors of every big city are opposed to it, that's the most important reason.
  
• cloggieking

  
   

  November 10, 2008 6:13:34 PM CET

  
  

  sunnfun (Nov 10 2008, 11:54 AM) said: > original post
  "They are talking about tourism going DOWN in Amsterdam and they have no clue why..."
  
  Could not agree more!!

  
  
  
  Really? since there is no basis to your claim I'm somewhat puzzled.
  
  [In de afgelopen jaren is het toerisme in Amsterdam sterk gegroeid. Sinds 2005 wordt er ieder jaar een record aantal toeristen gesignaleerd]
  
  http://amsterdam.nl/stad_in_beeld/feiten_cijfers/toerisme
  
  Though numbers could go down next year due to the global economy, the rising USD could proof to be somewhat of a cushion.
• emilio416

  
   

  November 10, 2008 6:35:10 PM CET

  
  

  utakubeta (Nov 10 2008, 05:19 PM) said: > original post
  my insulting today aren't we?
  the reality is people DO come here for the illicit things.
  Yes there's loads of museums, theaters,etc, but they're mostly in Dutch - ind if you know the language, or the curators are feeling kind enough to entertain english, and treat you like some kind of retarded child - not very good for tourism...
  I rather liked gietoorn (I know horrible spelling), Rotterdan, den haague, etc.
  
  you might want to learn to read as well, as i do N O T EVER! indulge in the illicit pleasantries you must be doing while reading this.
  
  I was merely pointing out that this is an insane move... and I would remind you that the cda did NOT say SOME... THEY SAID ALL!!!!!

  
  
  It is not my intention to insult you, as surely as it is not your intention to suggest tourists only visit the Swamp for the RDL and/or the Coffeeshops. For my part, as a professional in the tourist industry, dealing every day with visitors from all over the globe for years now, I assure you that only a very small minority of them is interested in RDL (for half an hour to an hour, just to see how it looks like) and almost nobody in Coffeeshops (I suppose this is more the domain of backpackers and bingedrinkers, who are not my clients).
  I'm not denying that people come to the Swamp to buy drugs and to visit the RDL. The question is, how much time are they staying and how much money do they spend? Many, in particular visitors from Germany, Belgium and the North of France, only stay the time needed to drive to a coffeeshop, buy their stuff and drive home again! One might even ask if these people can be categorised as "real tourists".
  About the Museums I will only observe that you missed an important point: ALL important museums have brochures in English, Audiotours in English, and written explanations in English (sometimes brochures are available in other languages as well).
  Btw, are you SERIOUSLY complaining that cultural life in the Swamp is mostly Dutch? Do you REALLY think an American or Canadian visitor - being here for a maybe 1 or 2 weeks - would bother?
  Another thing, the fact that you don't even bother to spell the names Giethoorn, Rotterdam and Den Haag correctly, although you are living more than long enough in the Swamp to know these toponyms, shows your state of mind. Nuff said.
• breezerb06

  
   

  November 11, 2008 10:26:43 AM CET

  
  

  emilio416 (Nov 10 2008, 12:10 PM) said: > original post
  I would like to add to Win's post that the situation changed dramatically since 1970 (almost 40 years ago!).
  Through seed selection and modern cultivation methods, today's Dutch cannabis is considered the best in the world. It cannot be compared with the rather harmless stuff of 1970. It is very strong, even addictive and absolutely harmful for the brains. People who want to close the coffeeshops do have valid arguments, although I'm not denying the attraction of coffeeshops and RLD to foreign tourists.

  
  
  
  I have to disagree with you emilio on the dangers of "nederweed" becoming much stronger than the pot from the 70's. This claim is bogus considering the fact that even in its most purest form(s), Hash Oil or Ice Hash, THC levels are still not even close enough to cause death or serious injury. So, to say that today's pot is stronger and thus a greater danger is baseless in its factual form. No one has ever died from smoking pot no matter how potent the stuff was. You can't say that for alcohol or tobacco.
• mkitchell

  
   

  November 11, 2008 10:45:21 AM CET

  
  

  mkitchell (Nov 9 2008, 03:26 PM) said: > original post
  Mushrooms are totally available.

  
  
  
  Ops. Not after Dec 1st. Of course now there will be an underground economy in dried shrooms.
• emilio416

  
   

  November 11, 2008 2:56:42 PM CET

  
  

  breezerb06 (Nov 11 2008, 10:26 AM) said: > original post
  I have to disagree with you emilio on the dangers of "nederweed" becoming much stronger than the pot from the 70's. This claim is bogus considering the fact that even in its most purest form(s), Hash Oil or Ice Hash, THC levels are still not even close enough to cause death or serious injury. So, to say that today's pot is stronger and thus a greater danger is baseless in its factual form. No one has ever died from smoking pot no matter how potent the stuff was. You can't say that for alcohol or tobacco.

  
  
  
  THC levels (that's what I'm talking about when I'm using the word "strong") are indeed lots HIGHER than 40 years ago. Just verify the lab results. I never said or implied that these high THC levels might cause death, but stated the IRREFUTABLE SCIENTIFIC FACT that they damage the brain, contrary to the light THC levels of 40 years ago. To conclude: I never claimed that people will die from smoking "nederweed". However, what I do claim here and now is that some of today's heavy nederweed smokers are IRREVERISIBILY damaging the faqculties of their brains.
  
• mkitchell

  
   

  November 11, 2008 3:06:15 PM CET

  
  

  emilio416 (Nov 11 2008, 01:56 PM) said: > original post
  THC levels (that's what I'm talking about when I'm using the word "strong") are indeed lots HIGHER than 40 years ago. Just verify the lab results. I never said or implied that these high THC levels might cause death, but stated the IRREFUTABLE SCIENTIFIC FACT that they damage the brain, contrary to the light THC levels of 40 years ago. To conclude: I never claimed that people will die from smoking "nederweed". However, what I do claim here and now is that some of today's heavy nederweed smokers are IRREVERISIBILY damaging the faqculties of their brains.

  
  
  
  I would like to see proof of this. There are a number of other factors. If the weed is weaker, more is smoked. With the strong weed, its often diluted.
  
  edit: I realize THC levels are higher, but I want to see proof overall THC consumption is up.
• Deleted Member

  

  • 5427 posts
   

  November 11, 2008 3:09:31 PM CET

  
  

  mkitchell (Nov 9 2008, 03:26 PM) said: > original post
  Mushrooms are totally available.

  
  
  
  They most probably won't be after December 1st.
  
• Deleted Member

  

  • 5427 posts
   

  November 11, 2008 3:33:20 PM CET

  
  

  mkitchell (Nov 11 2008, 02:06 PM) said: > original post
  I would like to see proof of this. There are a number of other factors. If the weed is weaker, more is smoked. With the strong weed, its often diluted.

  
  
  
  I think the weed is definitely stronger.
  In the 80's,hash was ALWAYS the stronger but now some of the skunk is really powerful.
  I don't bother with either very much anymore,but a few toots on a hashpipe now and again I find very enjoyable and relaxing,not to mention good for the soul...it makes me feel a bit sexy too.
  
  
• mkitchell

  
   

  November 11, 2008 4:04:49 PM CET

  
  

  mrfook (Nov 11 2008, 02:33 PM) said: > original post
  I think the weed is definitely stronger.
  In the 80's,hash was ALWAYS the stronger but now some of the skunk is really powerful.
  I don't bother with either very much anymore,but a few toots on a hashpipe now and again I find very enjoyable and relaxing,not to mention good for the soul...it makes me feel a bit sexy too.

  
  
  
  I edited my post to reflect the fact that yes, THC levels are higher for the plants but I want to evidence that people are not simply smoking less to compensate for it.
  
  Regardless, alcohol causes many more problems.
• Deleted Member

  

  • 5427 posts
   

  November 11, 2008 6:32:37 PM CET

  
  

  mkitchell (Nov 11 2008, 03:04 PM) said: > original post
  I edited my post to reflect the fact that yes, THC levels are higher for the plants but I want to evidence that people are not simply smoking less to compensate for it.
  
  Regardless, alcohol causes many more problems.

  
  
  
  Agreed.
  I'm not sure if I like skunk that much...its ok if you want to get totally out of your tree,but its not natural.I've heard stories of it being spiked too.
  It wouldn't surprise me if using large amounts could cause some brain damage in very young people.
  Also,I've found that if I smoke even small amounts but then on a regualr basis,I get a bit depressed and irritable from hash too.
  
• 5318008

  
   

  November 11, 2008 6:35:19 PM CET

  
  

  emilio416 (Nov 11 2008, 01:56 PM) said: > original post
  stated the IRREFUTABLE SCIENTIFIC FACT that they damage the brain, contrary to the light THC levels of 40 years ago. To conclude: I never claimed that people will die from smoking "nederweed". However, what I do claim here and now is that some of today's heavy nederweed smokers are IRREVERISIBILY damaging the faqculties of their brains.

  
  
  Please, please provide links to evidence that shows it is irrefutable scientific fact that THC (at any level of consumption) irreversibly damages the brain.
• win

  

  • 33 posts
   

  November 12, 2008 12:52:58 AM CET

  
  

  mrfook (Nov 11 2008, 03:09 PM) said: > original post
  They most probably won't be after December 1st.

  
  
  
  They will stay available, but they will go underground, one has to search for them on the streets, and the quality is not guaranteed.
  It's a shame.