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Inburgering courses

AiweeLau
- 10 posts
October 22, 2012 3:19:09 PM CEST

Hi,

I am new to the forum. Been doing reserach on the inburgering process since I receive a letter from the Gemeente informing that I have to pass the inburgering exam before 2015.

I had spoken to the lady in charge on the phone but she did not sound helpful.

I read the government is going to stop subsidising course and exam fee.. but it was not very clear what/when/how. Are/were they paying for the whole inburgering courses before and now they are going to completely stop it? I understand they do give out loan but I thought they are still paying for the courses up until end of this year. Anybody knows anything about this?

Cheers,

Aiwee
HappyBird
- 51 posts
October 22, 2012 9:35:14 PM CEST

Are you a newcomer or oldcomer? Different gemeentes have different "treatments" to people who (by law) need to integrate into the society. Some still pay for everything (courses and exam fees). Some have already stopped some years ago. But because of the economic crisis, many gemeentes would stop it. Starting next year January 1 2013, it is showed in the website of the government that the person pays for everything for it. But the new government is still negotiating, many policies can change overnight.

We need to read the letter you mentioned from the gemeente before we could tell you more about it. As far as I remember, in the letter which the gemeente sent me "invited" me for a meeting to discuss over the inburgering issue. In the meeting the person will tell you what the gemeente could offer you or couldn't offer you. You can ask as many questions as you have. And don't sign anything in the meeting. Don't sign anything in a rush. Get the document (contract) and let others who can read Dutch translate every single word in the contract. Or you read at home. In my meeting, she didn't ask me to sign anything. Only weeks later she sent me a contract and I sign it even after the deadline.
AiweeLau
- 10 posts
October 22, 2012 10:11:25 PM CEST

Hi, I think i am considered a new comer, been here for only 13 months or so. There was supposed to be a first letter which I did not receive (therefore I don't know the content) but according to the second letter, i missed an appointment for "inburgeringsonderzoek" and I am fined Euro100 unless my explanation to them on missing my 1st appointment is accepted.

However, I misunderstood their second letter (in Dutch!) that I have to be at the cityhall on the said date and time. I thought I only had to call them before the date to make an appointment. So I called and one of the staff did not tell me about the appointment and she said she will post me a letter with date and time for the appointment.

So 3 days later, instead of getting a letter with date and time for my appointment, I got a letter telling me that i missed my appointment (again) and that I am on my own for my inburgering exam.

I called the Gemeente Haarlem today, the PIC was not exactly friendly and she at first refused to accept my explanation and told me i had to do the course by my own like everybody else. I insisted that i wanted the appointment to get to know more about the Inburgering Process and she said she is going to mail me another letter with new appointment date and time.

I am curious to know what to expect on the appointment if I did not miss the first and second appointments that i did not know i was being offered!

Thanks for the advice of not signing anything on the spot. My Dutch is probably not good enough to do the Vrijstellingtoets exam now but I am considering give it a shot because that seems the fastest, easiest and cheapest way. Maybe with 1-2 months of HARD work and some luck, I might stand a chance to pass?
nerissa
- 344 posts
October 23, 2012 10:45:50 AM CEST

It really depends on what you want to get out of it. If you want to just get the obligation out of the way, study hard (there are some useful books listed in other threads) and attempt the exemption exam. However, if you want to learn the language, consider taking a staatsexamen course. That will get you to a much higher (and useful) level than an inburgering course so you can work or study in Dutch.

It's correct that the funding is stopping everywhere as of the beginning of next year, so unless you have extenuating circumstances which the Gemeente agrees with, you are on your own in terms of paying for the courses and exams.

As HappyBird says, don't sign anything upfront. I made this mistake as they pushed me and didn't explain the options (she couldn't even tell me where I could take an entrance exam) and before I knew it I found myself locked into a course that I didn't really want to do. In the end it was beneficial, so I'm not sorry, but I would have appreciated more info... Oh, and you can't do the exemption exam if you sign a contract with the gemeente.
HappyBird
- 51 posts
October 23, 2012 1:48:43 PM CEST

Aiwee, if you don't misunderstand what the letter after the second letter said that you are on your own for the inburgeringsexamen, then it means you arrange (search and apply) and pay for yourself in order to comply to the "duties" under the inburgering law. If the gemeente doesn't pay for your inburgering, you can take the Korte Vrijstellingstoets. Then you'd better hurry, the application (aanvragen) of KVT is up to the end of this year (about 2 months from now). But frankly speaking, I doubt if you could pass KVT. It really asks for a much higher level of Dutch fluency. You can study for the hard facts of the daily roundabout in the Dutch society in a few months or even in a few weeks. But Dutch fluency......Those you read about in this forum who pass the KVT are guys (and ladies of course) who at least achieve Level A2 or B1+ of their Dutch fluency, although they were never tested by the authority.

Aiwee (again), when you receive (official) letters from Dutch government (the gemeente or the ministry), you'd better make sure you fully understand what it is about. If you cannot read it, ask for help. In Nederland, rules are rules (regels zijn regels). Because of the past (bad) experiences of the government with immigrates, it is very very rare they will make any exemption for you. By your user name, I think you may be a Chinese. If you're here alone (not with a partner or family), you can go to the Chinese community for the translation of the letters in Dutch. You may hate me after this reply, but I really don't want to see any Chinese becoming anothe victum from inburgering, as I'm also a Chinese.
AiweeLau
- 10 posts
October 23, 2012 2:17:17 PM CEST

Thanks Nerissa for the reply. I read that once we pass the (chosen) exam, we will get some money back. Is that correct?

NT2 exam was my first choice but I do need to take in consideration of the cost and time spent. I think my Dutch might not even be good enough to start the NT2 straight away.

I am also afraid i might lack commitment to go through the whole NT2 course as language is not my forte.

HappyBird, thanks for the warning, I do have a Dutch partner. It was his mistake to scan read the letter and made me missed my appointment. He is thinking of attending the coming appointment with me and we are trying to figure out the role of the gemeente so that we know they are not exploiting my rights.

I do feel like to give the KVT a go although i understand the chance of passing is very low. I just want to get rid of the formality and do my own inburgering at my own pace.

I feel like they should test our ability to think and research instead of training us foreigners to be the Dutch encyclopedia.
AiweeLau
- 10 posts
October 23, 2012 2:23:06 PM CEST

BTW HappyBird, what do you mean by another victim from inburgering?
HappyBird
- 51 posts
October 23, 2012 6:00:27 PM CEST

NT2 is purely for language. It is also a "staatexamen" for usually foreigners with a low (quite low that no Dutch companies would recognise it) Dutch language ability. There are different stages in NT2. The lowest level is A1, the highest A2. Above A2, you take "staatexamen" as Nerissa said. The lowest level of it is B1. With this level, you should have no problem reading letters (except the lawful one).

But now you haven't got many choices. The "portfolio examen" is more time-consuming and not really for language-aimed. For me, it is more oriented for low-education group, although people from this group also have many problems with it. As you speak and write English, I think you are more to the high-end side. If the gemeente won''t pay for your inburgering and you are not obligated to go to any specific school the gemeente has appointed (usually those schools are not that good), you are free to choose how you learn the language as long as you pass the exam within a time period stated by the gemeente (for example in 2 or 5 years). Then you can (as you said): I just want to get rid of the formality and do my inburgering at my own pace. If money is not a problem to you, you can attend private lessons such as those from the British School, or hire a private tutor, or buy some self-study package to study home in your free time. Or your Dutch partner teaches you Dutch. (But I doubt, as he didn't read the letters for you or take it serious for you.) Punishment for your Dutch partner: No Chinese food for 2 months!! Nou...He is thinking of attending the coming appointment with me....He has to! Tja, what else he should think?

Victim from inburgering......Once they finished the complusory inburgeringscursus but failed the examen, nothing is follow up. They didn't have any other courses offered to them. They were busy working in a non-Dutch environment, not many chances to expose to the Dutch language. Years later, they still couldn't speak Dutch. Suddenly they were bombarded with all the rules/laws about inburgering. Otherwises they got finded for so and so money. Now they are oudkomers, but they don't know anything about KVT. And next year, no more KVT.....bla bla bla.........
AiweeLau
- 10 posts
October 24, 2012 12:53:02 PM CEST

He can't even stand no Chinese food for 1 week, he was not impressed with your suggestion. :D

I think you guys missing out the "money back" part from the geovernment? If i pass one of the required exam withint 3 years (instead of 5 or the given time frame), I get to claim something like 70% of my cost back. I have no idea what sort of costs are we talking about but it says the maximum claim is Euro3,000 so I think it will be quite a big sum.
HappyBird
- 51 posts
October 24, 2012 5:48:43 PM CEST

Under another topic in "Legal Problems in the Netherlands", I have quoted from the website inburgeren.nl the following :

For this 650 euro (wish I'm entitled to it too),

Er zijn regels voor het krijgen van een vergoeding. Deze regels heten voorwaarden. De voorwaarden voor een vergoeding zijn:

U moet het inburgeringsdiploma binnen 3 jaar hebben. Woonde u voor 2007 al in Nederland? Dan vertelt uw gemeente wanneer deze 3 jaar ingaan. Bent u na 1 januari 2007 in Nederland komen wonen? Dan gaan deze 3 jaar in als u de verblijfsvergunning krijgt.
De gemeente betaalt het examen niet voor u. De gemeente betaalt de cursus ook niet voor u. Doet de gemeente dit wel? Dan krijgt u geen vergoeding.
U moet verplicht het inburgeringsexamen doen.
Hebt u de cursus en het examen zelf betaald? En wilt u een vergoeding? Ga dan naar een officiële school of exameninstelling.

((So the KVT doesn't count because you won't get a "inburgeringsdiploma" after you pass it. I remember during the meeting by the gemeentehuis, I suggested I'd take KVT. But the woman told me that by KVT you won't get a diploma. That's what she meant.))

I don't know what "official schools" are. Would these be ROC, Capabel Taal, etc. but not other private runned ones? So no private tutuors, no self-studied package. And you have to pay the costs first, keep all the reciepts/proof, and after you pass all parts of the exams and receive your inburgeringsdiploma, you apply for your reimbursement. There are examples how much you get back (minimum 650 euro, maximum 3,000 euro) by the website. The last example shown on the website tells (somehow) how to make the most biggest "profit margin".

I know years back a guy who did the both -- attended the appointed school by the gemeente (compulsory but free) AND paid out of his own pocket, went to a private school in the evening. He was very concerned about learning the language. Good to him.
ldyparadox99
- 314 posts
October 25, 2012 12:40:49 PM CEST

The school has to be registered with http://www.blikopwerk.nl/ to qualify for th money back. Also, I think it was mentioned, but you need to register THIS YEAR to qualify as it's officially being dropped January 2013.

You can apply for a loan via DUO-IB-Group (I've done this since I can't really afford the 3500 for the class I'm taking) and it has a very low interest rate. Again, you have to use a school approved by Bilk op Werk.

http://www.inburgeren.nl/inburgeraar/geld/geld_lenen/geld_lenen.asp

And yes, if you get the loan, once you pass and get the 70% back, you can immediately use it to pay off 70% of the loan.

I've registered with http://www.ikwilnaarnederland.nl/index.php. I've heard good things, but I'm still a little less than impressed that they pushed classes back by 2 weeks AND changed the days after I made arrangements with work and in my personal life. o_O We'll see how it goes.
HappyBird
- 51 posts
October 25, 2012 4:00:55 PM CEST

ldyparadox99 said:
The school has to be registered with http://www.blikopwerk.nl/ to qualify for th money back. Also, I think it was mentioned, but you need to register THIS YEAR to qualify as it's officially being dropped January 2013. You can apply for a loan via DUO-IB-Group (I've done this since I can't really afford the 3500 for the class I'm taking) and it has a very low interest rate.

I cannot find any information about the time limit of "vergoeding". What will be dropped starting from January 2013 next year is KVT and the role the gemeente plays for the "inburgeringsplicht" such as the arrangement and the costs of the courses and examen fees.

Before January 2013 if you have the "inburgeringsplicht" (your gemeente will send/has already sent you letter(s) telling you that), and if they pay for the costs, you don't get any "vergoeding" with some exceptions. If the gemeente don't pay the costs and you pay to the official school to fulfil your "inburgeringsplicht" yourself, you can get the "vergoeding".

If you have the "inburgeringsplicht" after January 2013, it means the gemeente would play a much less role and won't pay for any costs and won't arrange things for you. The DUO by the Ministry of Education will take over the "inspection" role, but also won't pay and won't arrange things for you. If you do spend money by the official school, you can get the "vergoeding".

For newcomers, the big difference concering money before / after is :

Before -- probably the gemeente pays for it, you can by far get 200+euro net (profit).

After -- nobody will pay for it, you pay yourself. Depending how much you have spent, you may get XXX euro net (profit), or XXX euro net (loss).
AiweeLau
- 10 posts
October 25, 2012 4:57:51 PM CEST

Thanks ldyparadox99 and HappyBird, I have checked with the blikopwerk website, if i were to take NT2, Nova College is listed with them. I am waiting for them to get back to me on the cost and program of the NT2 course.

I hope they have some knowledge about the inburgering rules and regulation and money back option. I am guessing the fee (for the whole course till i pass the exam) would be no less than Euro3,000 so 70% of that back will be very helpful! The way the regulations go, they want to op out the poor and uneducated immigrants?

I have yet to receive the letter from the Gemeente, Gemeente Haarlem seems to be not so efficient with my case.
HappyBird
- 51 posts
October 25, 2012 11:44:36 PM CEST

3000 euro minus 2100 euro is 900 euro. So you at the end pay out of your own pocket 900 euro. But hand on.....you probably have the "inburgeringsplicht" before January 2013. So the gemeente may still pay for the costs. If so, you won't get any "vergoeding" (only 200+ euro). And you probably cannot choose your own school/course. The gemeente appoints a school for you.

Spending (at the end) 900 euro for a good-quality school/course is well worth than those schools appointed by the gemeente. Usually they are crap. So the new model may not be a bad one. This new one also ensures the inburgering sector (the Dutch call it an industry) survive while the number of non-EU immigrates drops over the years.

All the western countries try their best to keep poor immigrants out. The Dutch actually started quite late.

So wait for the letter from the gemeente, make sure you understand what it is about this time and take appropriate action on time. My gemeente is quite efficient. They spot me less than a year. They give me 5-years time to finish the exams. I don't expect that. Maybe I have a "verstandelijke beperkend" and a sincere face!! But I did it in 5 months. Aaaach, about how long you got to pass the exams....note that the gemeente may date back from the time you registered by them (within 3 days after you landed in NL with the MVV) or the date they spot you. One of my friends here thought he could do it in 3 years, but actually 2 years + 1 month because his gemeente dated back from their first meeting by the gemeentehuis.
AiweeLau
- 10 posts
November 22, 2012 1:46:46 PM CET

Hi guys,

Thought I would update you guys more about what's happening in Haarlem with the Inburgering "thingy" that I have learnt.

1. Gemeente Haarlem has run out of their inburgering fund, so everybody is on their own.
2. before too late (end of 2012) apply first for your loan with DUO. Both of the schools that i am considering taking up NT2 told me that I should apply ASAP (which i did yesterday) before I decide which school or course i am going to take. When the loan is approved, it will last for one year. So as long as my loan is approved, i can use it in 2013.
3. Starting 2013, people with income more than Euro44k per year will not be eligible for any loan. The 70% money back will be removed completely.
4. If you wish to utilise the 70% money back benefit, you need to apply before 2013 for the loan. Only with the loan system, you get 70% money back. If you pay for yourself, you can't apply for the money back later.
5. Apparently once the loan has been approved, you don't need to pay upfront and claim, the school will bill DUO directly until you finished the course (in time), then you pay the 30% balance.

If anybody has more information about which schools (in Haarlem) and fee/course duration/structure, you are welcome to contact me. The two schools that i have contacted have very different pricing (one is double the price of the other one for DUO approved course) but this will be completely different game next year without 70% money back.
adappel
- 7 posts
January 5, 2013 7:12:21 AM CET

As my school is in the Haarlem district - please contact me if you are interested in a good course. The price is not the only thing you should look at. Lessons in my school seem to be expensive, but there are many factors that the student has to take into consideration.

http://adappel.nl/cursussen/inburgeren-in-nederland/

This post was edited by adappel at January 5, 2013 7:12:56 AM CET
AiweeLau
- 10 posts
January 5, 2013 12:46:38 PM CET

Thanks Adappel, your school is too far from my house, distance is definitely an important factor.