mantra (Nov 21 2009, 03:06 PM) said: > original post
Hi,
I am an EU citizen,unmarried and I have been in Holland for more than 5 years.
At my arrival in 2004, my boss instructed me to apply for a 5-year temporary
residence permit. Maybe not necessary, but it was cheap. Fair enough.
By now, it has expired and I am weighing the possibilty to turn it into a
permanent residence permit (duurzaam verblijfsdocument). I have
no intention to get a Dutch passport.
What are the exact benefits it brings to a EU citizen?
I can only think that - in case I lose my job - I may be allowed to stay
in Holland (and/or benefit from the uitkering) only for a limited period (say
a few months).
What's your advise on this?
Thanks
mantra (Nov 21 2009, 02:06 PM) said: > original post
Hi,
I am an EU citizen,unmarried and I have been in Holland for more than 5 years.
At my arrival in 2004, my boss instructed me to apply for a 5-year temporary
residence permit. Maybe not necessary, but it was cheap. Fair enough.
By now, it has expired and I am weighing the possibilty to turn it into a
permanent residence permit (duurzaam verblijfsdocument). I have
no intention to get a Dutch passport.
What are the exact benefits it brings to a EU citizen?
I can only think that - in case I lose my job - I may be allowed to stay
in Holland (and/or benefit from the uitkering) only for a limited period (say
a few months).
What's your advise on this?
avocado (Nov 22 2009, 04:20 PM) said: > original post
Well, I can save you some sleepless nights about whether or not to apply for it-- you already have the status of 'permanently resident EU citizen'. You gained it automatically after living and working in the Netherlands for 5 years; it's not even dependent on the fact that you hold a residence permit. The 'duurzaam verblijfsdocument' is just a document proving that you have that status. So you have nothing to lose by applying for it.
The benefit of having this status is that you are entitled to stay in the Netherlands permanently, no matter what; your right to stay is no longer dependent on the fact that you are working. You have to be treated equally to Dutch citizens in every way except for the usual exceptions of voting or standing for Parliament or holding sensitive positions in the government or the military. You can apply for any kind of public assistance you want. You can also marry or become partners with a non-EU citizen, and have them get legal residence in the Netherlands, without having to demonstrate anything about your employment or finances. And you can only be kicked out if you are convicted of an extremely serious and shocking crime involving violence or drug trafficking.
In practice, you would probably benefit more from having the document for dealing with private parties who are ignorant to the fact that you already have extensive rights as an EU citizen to start with, and who want to see a 'permanent residence permit' before they will sign a contract with you: mortgage lenders, mobile phone providers, etc.
Jeremy Bierbach, LLM
www.immigrate.nl
mvn (Nov 22 2009, 03:22 PM) said: > original post
That was the only thing I figured out which was the public benefit and not being kicked out. As for sponsoring someone, I just figured I'd rely on the EU route. However, it didn't occur to me that I could sponsor someone without having to prove my finances under this permanent EU resident status. I find this strange since when a Dutch person sponsors someone, they do have to demonstrate a minimum salary and contract. How do you explain this disparity?
veldrin055 (Nov 23 2009, 12:26 PM) said: > original post
That's why the so called Belgian Route is so popular, beucase it makes life much simpler. In my understanding, if a EU but non-Dutch person wants to "import" a partner, they use the EU laws. But if a Dutch person wants to do the same, they use the Dutch rules. And the Dutch rules are stricter.
mvn (Nov 22 2009, 04:22 PM) said: > original post
That was the only thing I figured out which was the public benefit and not being kicked out. As for sponsoring someone, I just figured I'd rely on the EU route. However, it didn't occur to me that I could sponsor someone without having to prove my finances under this permanent EU resident status. I find this strange since when a Dutch person sponsors someone, they do have to demonstrate a minimum salary and contract. How do you explain this disparity?
avocado (Nov 23 2009, 02:46 PM) said: > original post
Whoa, first of all, careful now with the terms! Mvn, as far as I know you are a holder of an 'EG-langdurig ingezetene' permit, which you could sort of call a 'permanent EU resident status'; this is a status for non-EU citizens (governed by Directive 2003/109). Mantra was asking about the right of permanent residence for EU citizens (governed by Directive 2004/38), which is something completely different altogether. In the hierarchy of rights you get, as a non-EU citizen holder of the 'EG-langdurig ingezetene' permit you are still lower than an EU citizen who has just arrived in the Netherlands; then the EU citizen who has permanent residence status has the most rights.
As to the 'equality' of EU citizens to Dutch citizens: it is actually only a one-way street (or as I said in another thread, 'some citizens are more equal than others'). An EU citizen has to be treated equally to Dutch citizens to the extent that it benefits the EU citizen. However, the Netherlands is free to impose restrictions on its own citizens, and it does, by making strict family reunification rules for its own citizens who want to bring in partners. This is called 'reverse discrimination', and it is allowed: if (for instance) a Dutch citizen complained of discrimination because his French neighbor was able to effortlessly bring in a partner while the Dutch citizen was rejected for not having the right kind of contract, then the European Court of Justice would say to the Dutch citizen, 'but you never made any use of your freedom of movement as an EU citizen, so EU law has nothing to say about your situation'. As soon as the Dutch citizen moves to Belgium, though, then EU law applies to him and he can bring in his partner just as effortlessly.
The reason it is so easy for EU citizens is because there haven't really been any rules made yet for family reunification of EU citizens-- it won't happen anytime soon, either, with 27 member states having quite divergent attitudes toward immigration, some more liberal, some more repressive (guess which end of the scale the Netherlands is at). So for the time being, all that can be required of an EU citizen is that she/he be legally resident in another member state before she/he can bring in a partner. That 'legally resident' can be proved by showing proof of a job, of self-sufficiency, or of having permanent resident status.
So you see, the reason EU citizens (might) have to show their proof of income is a different reason than the reason Dutch citizens have to show their proof of income. Dutch citizens have to show their proof of income to prove that they can support the partner, and that's also why it's a specific income requirement of about €1600 net. EU citizens (might) have to show their proof of income just to prove that they are really working, and therefore legally resident. But if an EU citizen has permanent residence status, then he/she no longer has to prove anything about whether he/she is working or not.
monkeynuts (Nov 23 2009, 03:43 PM) said: > original post
Personally I would get one. It can't hurt in this rule obsessed regulated country and is just another 'official' document to produce if needs be. But bear in mind my story below.
Even when I married a Dutch citizen and was working I wasn't allowed a permanent RP - only 5 years. This year, when it ran out, I applied again and was told I could have a permanent RP. I thought great and applied and was told to pick it up near Sloterdijk Station.
When I went to pick it up it had an end date of 2014. I asked why this was as it was a permanent RP and was told that every 5 years I would have to have the photo renewed - so again I would have to fill out forms, send them off with new photos, wait for them to process it and then line up for hours to collect. I'm not sure if there was any cost involved.
I told them in no uncertain terms that as I was from the EU there was no way I was going to be doing this every five years.
They just looked at me blankly and shugged their shoulders.
illuminatus (Nov 23 2009, 04:03 PM) said: > original post
I've never had a 5 year RP! can't see the point, I've been here 8 years and when I first arrived had the stamp in my passport valid for 6 months, got my SOFI number and after that went nowhere near those offices again.
Recently I had a mortgage approved and have moved in my new place, so obviously these so called 'permits' are unnecessary.
ouloveit1 said:
That's right - every 5 years the Permanent Residence Permit has to be renewed .. but everything has to be renewed ... at some point. Right?
I mean such important documents pretty much all have an expiration date.
I am NON-EU and I got the letter stating that under article XYZ, I have permanent Dutch and EU status blah, blah, blah and I think that's what counts. I mean .. THAT's not gonna change. The card you carry around is just something to have in your hands.
That's just like having my Driver's License or my Passport renewed. They are not gonna make me take another drivers test to prove that I can still drive or make me prove my US citizenship ... in order to have my passport renewed every 10 years. (US passports last 10 years)
They are just gonna have me produce a current photo, pay a fee, fill out a form ... and then these permits will be renewed. This is how such things are managed in my home country too so (shrugs)... I don't see that this is a problem to tell the truth.
I have a friend that has been here 18 years, still has her US passport and every 5 years .. she has her Permanent permit renewed.
I mean .. if anything the actual card I am carrying around can't physically last .. for the rest of my life! Hee hee!
To renew the permanent residence card do you need to have a job contract ( for at least a year) at the time of applying to IND?
danzindd said:
To renew the permanent residence card do you need to have a job contract ( for at least a year) at the time of applying to IND?
No. A permanent residence permit (verblijfsvergunning voor onbepaalde tijd) is unconditional. That means that it is not conditional on you having a job, or a partner, enrollment in a course of study or whatever other kind of conditions exist for a non-permanent residence permit. Essentially, all that is required for the renewal (technically, it's not called a 'renewal' but a 'replacement', since you are just 'replacing' the document but you are not lengthening its validity, since it's already permanent) is a passport photo, a signature, a copy of your passport, and your uittreksel from city hall.
Jeremy Bierbach, LLM
www.immigrate.nl
