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Verdonk wants to implement "behaviour code" in the street

ignoramus
January 21, 2006 9:13:56 PM CET

Verdonk wil omgangscode voor heel Nederland
ROTTERDAM - Minister Verdonk (Vreemdelingenzaken en Integratie) wil een code voor heel Nederland waarin gedragsregels voor burgers staan. Uitgangspunten moeten de Nederlandse waarden en normen zijn zoals het spreken van de Nederlandse taal op straat, niet discrimineren en gelijkheid tussen man en vrouw.

Verdonk zei dat zaterdag tijdens een VVD-congres over integratie. Ze is geïnteresseerd in de Rotterdam-code, waarin zeven gedragsregels staan voor de dagelijkse omgang tussen alle burgers. De bewindsvrouw zei dat ze ook toe wil naar zo'n code voor integratie en burgerschap, die wat haar betreft voor alle gemeenten zou moeten gelden.

Daarvoor gaat de minister met deskundigen om de tafel zitten om te kijken „wat belangrijk is, wat de Nederlandse identiteit is, waar zijn we trots op?” De bewindsvrouw zegt dat het allochtonen vaak niet duidelijk is wat van hen verwacht wordt als zij zich in Nederland hebben gevestigd. „Ze spreken mij daarop aan. Wij moeten daar duidelijker in durven te zijn. Het blijft nu te abstract”, aldus Verdonk.

Haar partijgenoot Griffith, wethouder in Amsterdam, kan zich niet vinden in zo'n code. Vooral het Nederlands spreken op straat gaat haar veel te ver. „Als ik met mijn vriendin op straat lekker Surinaams loop te keuvelen, moet ik dat zelf weten. Ik veroorzaak geen overlast.” Verdonk zegt daarentegen dat mensen zich vaak onprettig voelen, als zij op straat alleen maar buitenlandse talen horen.

Zo'n bemoeienis van de overheid is in de ogen van Griffith bovendien niet liberaal. Wel vindt ze dat Nederlands de taal moet zijn in winkels en op scholen en schoolpleinen. Griffith vindt een code als die in Rotterdam slechts een papiertje terwijl het „erom gaat gedrag tussen de oren te krijgen.” Ook vreest ze een hellend vlak, „want straks gaan we ook codes opstellen voor het uiterlijk van mensen.” Minister Verdonk vindt een omgangscode wel liberaal omdat alle mensen zich veilig moeten voelen in de samenleving.

Verder vindt de bewindsvrouw het belangrijk dat allochtonen meer melding ervan maken en aangifte doen, als zij gediscrimineerd worden bij het zoeken naar een baan of een stageplek. „Als vijftien autochtone leerlingen wel een stageplaats hebben en de vijf allochtone niet, weet je dat het niet goed is.” Verdonk spreekt werkgevers erop aan dat zij iedereen gelijke kansen moeten geven. Volgens haar voeren veel grote bedrijven een actief diversiteitsbeleid maar moet het midden- en kleinbedrijf daarin nog beter aan de slag.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/3211339...and.html

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Ok, now I am depressed. How the fuck are they going to legislate what language people speak in the street? This is a witch hunt and another reason for many well off foreigners to consider packing.
nickgabrichidze
January 21, 2006 9:30:40 PM CET

Just don't pay attention they are insane. No one ever is going to fit into their normen en waarden but they just are too weak toaccept it.
khutulun
January 21, 2006 10:41:48 PM CET

Notice that she claims she is doing this for the benefit of the allochtonen:

"Daarvoor gaat de minister met deskundigen om de tafel zitten om te kijken „wat belangrijk is, wat de Nederlandse identiteit is, waar zijn we trots op?” De bewindsvrouw zegt dat het allochtonen vaak niet duidelijk is wat van hen verwacht wordt als zij zich in Nederland hebben gevestigd. „Ze spreken mij daarop aan. Wij moeten daar duidelijker in durven te zijn. Het blijft nu te abstract”, aldus Verdonk."

[http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/3211339...and.html]

Apparently the allochtonen don't know what the Dutch identity consists in, in what the Dutch take pride, etc. I doubt Verdonk knows either. And at the rate she is going, soon there'll be nothing left for the Dutch to be proud of. On the contrary, much to be ashamed of.

Really, Rita, there is nothing it is especially like to be Dutch. The Dutch breath the same air as everyone else does. Unless, of course, you were implying that the Dutch are some sort of Ubermensch...

I hope Verdonk is an alien because otherwise she's the most ridiculous thing the human species has thrown up in a while.
vivaverdonk
January 21, 2006 11:13:48 PM CET

She was just pulliung a fast one there. She was making a statement for public consumption. Not drafting a legislation or somethin, I mean c'mon, you can't legislate these kind of things anyway, right?

This is comparable to the "passport-for-Kalou" affair. She is just trying to find out the legal (national + EU) possibilities and limits.

The Rotterdam-project/Rotterdam-code thoing is just a test trial about encouraging foreign school-kids to speak Dutch in the school playgrounds. This is essentially an inner-city-only problem in just one or two schools in Rotterdam and Amsterdam only (most "zwarte scholen" speak Dutch on the playgrounds already). And telling kids to speak a partuicular language is common practice in many places for example the Dutch-speaking (Flemish) run schools in the predominantly francophone city of Brussels are also strictly enforcing a policy of NOT speaking french on playgrounds and instead trying to practice Dutch during recess.

But if anyone should be blamed for all of this it should be non other than albion scallywag Tony Blair. Yes it is he who started the ASBO revolution. It was his invention and it was inavitably only a matter of time before other European countries would follow suit and set-up simmilar projects.

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/...g400.jpg

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,20...,00.html
wondering
January 21, 2006 11:36:31 PM CET

She is going crazy! She reminds me of Aldof Hilter. Can somebody do something...to kick her out....or the whole government falls....PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEE
ignoramus
January 21, 2006 11:37:10 PM CET

Quote:

But if anyone should be blamed for all of this it should be non other than albion scallywag Tony Blair. Yes it is he who started the ASBO revolution. It was his invention and it was inavitably only a matter of time before other European countries would follow suit and set-up simmilar projects.

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/...g400.jpg

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,20...,00.html

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Exactly what kind of train of thought did you follow in order to blame Blair for a "Dutch only" policy in the streets of NL? Can you please explain how the two initiatives can be compared?
ignoramus
January 21, 2006 11:41:41 PM CET

Quote:

Apparently the allochtonen don't know what the Dutch identity consists in, in what the Dutch take pride, etc. I doubt Verdonk knows either. And at the rate she is going, soon there'll be nothing left for the Dutch to be proud of. On the contrary, much to be ashamed of.

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Not only there will be little to be proud of, but the Dutch are going to lose one of the few skills they used to promote in order to market their economy to international markets: their ability to speak many languages. I wonder how long until Verdonkey tries to ban bilingual education at home.

Does anyone still remember the video stolen from Maxima in Buenos Aires where she was seen talking and playing with Amalia... IN SPANISH! Moreover, does anyone, particularly in the current goverment, still remember that the Oranje House stated that the future queen will receive a bilingual Dutch/Spanish education? How can Verdonkey try to ban public use of a foreign language when the Royals themselves are doing it?
flygirl
January 22, 2006 12:14:52 AM CET

I have often felt uncomfortable speaking to my 11 year old daughter in English in public, we have been sneered at, and got dirty looks etc...not life threatening, but I just speak Dutch outside now ; it's easier!
fles
January 22, 2006 1:42:26 AM CET

It's necessary because Nederish is dying as a language. The natives speak English all the time, and only switch to Nederese when a foreigner enters the room.
kocourkov
- 18 posts
January 22, 2006 2:58:12 AM CET

"People don't feel safe if they hear foreign languages being spoken in the street?!" WTF is this idiot sociopath talking about?

You know what, I'd love to see her fucking language police walking around giving fines to people for not speaking Dutch. But of course you know that this would end up just being harassment for "nie-blankies". Will this precious little code mean that I won't have to be triple sure that I don't get hit by some stupid bitch running a red light on her bicycle... of course not. Will Dutch people stop using all kinds of racial epithets and even implement an anti-discrimination law with teeth? Of course not.

I speak seven languages, and I'll speak which one I want whenever I want and to whomever the fuck I want. In fact, many times these days I do not bother to speak Dutch. If other people don't like it, then fuck them. I pay tax, I don't shove old ladies in front of buses and I've never been on welfare. Obviously, that's not enough. My behaviour needs "rules".

Verdonk sounds more and more like a sort of minion of the Taliban or Hitler.
chatnoir
January 22, 2006 3:38:52 AM CET

Quote:

It's necessary because Nederish is dying as a language. The natives speak English all the time, and only switch to Nederese when a foreigner enters the room.

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A Dutch woman once asked me: "Spreek je Hollands?"

"Hollands"?! I thought their language is called "Nederlands"?!
clickit
January 22, 2006 3:45:28 AM CET

Quote:

I have often felt uncomfortable speaking to my 11 year old daughter in English in public, we have been sneered at, and got dirty looks etc...not life threatening, but I just speak Dutch outside now ; it's easier!

************************************

I had the same experience with my kid. We still speak english in public because my daughter prefers it, she feels most comfortable with me in english. Her dutch is perfect, no one even realises she wasnt born here, and she out performs her dutch classmates in taal, listening, and spelling. I dont care what anyone says, I will keep speaking to her in our mother tongue and its no one elses business. Shame on Verdonk for even throwing this one out for discussion
clickit
January 22, 2006 3:49:43 AM CET

"There is only one thing that I can attribute to the Dutch peoples animosity to foreigners, and it is that they have been subjected to enormous immigration. "Some" of these immigrants have no inclination to find work, and if they do it is only for long enough to qualify for an uitkering (Dole money), that is a fact that I learned from first hand experience"

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so its our fault? Its my daughters fault that she has been subjected to rudeness because of the language we speak? I dont think so.

There is nothing particularly unique about the immigration issues in the Netherlands, there has been mass immigration to many other countries too, and yet in general immigrants have been accepted as part of the overall population in those countries. Dont try and pin this one entirely on the immigrants please, as though the dutch are victims in their own country - of which, by the way, they are still hugely in the MAJORITY.
sulagoetjes_hotmail_com
January 22, 2006 4:26:56 AM CET

Quote: Verdonk

Volgens haar voeren veel grote bedrijven een actief diversiteitsbeleid maar moet het midden- en kleinbedrijf daarin nog beter aan de slag.

**************************

Verdonk said that allochtonen should complain to the authorities if they are discriminated. According to her, most big companies have an active diversity employment policy but SMEs are lagging far behind.

Well, I would love to see the right honorable Minister Verdonk take concrete actions to make SMEs are receptive to employing allochtonen who qualify. And btw parkers don't need to be able to speak fluent Dutch, do they?
flippo
January 22, 2006 4:56:22 AM CET

Quote (anthony_brown):

It saddens me to hear all of these negative comments about the Dutch and their society.

************************************

That's not the point here. The point is that a government minister here is actually proposing that ALL conversation (i.e. also AMONG people with a shared non-Dutch native language) on the street should be in Dutch, or else people will apparently feel "unsafe". That this can and will not be enforced by the police is pretty obvious, it will therefore not be a law but a set of commonly known "rules of behaviour". This of course means that the expectation is that people will take it upon themselves to keep other people to these rules, or else they'd be totally pointless. Ten to one people will start hassling strangers on the street demanding that they "speak Dutch!". Note that all this has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with your otherwise correct observation that being able to speak Dutch with Dutch people (!) will improve one's integration and sense of belonging.

As to your "defense" of the Dutch: I am Dutch and I would appreciate it very much if you did not try to speak on behalf of me and all my countrymen - because we hold many different views. You see, the Netherlands is a democracy with freedom of opinion. On matters such as these, opinion is very much divided. It is perfectly possible to be Dutch and to not agree with Verdonk, no matter how much some of the more totalitarian-minded among the Verdonk-supporters would disagree. I, for one, think your "explanation" of animosity towards non-natives is one-sided. As with any one-sided explanation, it is not merely a correct, but incomplete explanation. It is a one-sided and therefore useless explanation.

Now, what is your opinion on the idea that no other languages than Dutch should be used in the Dutch public sphere? If you agree, I expect your answer to be in Dutch, of course
flippo
January 22, 2006 5:12:16 AM CET

Quote (Viva Verdonk):

Bla, bla, bla.

But if anyone should be blamed for all of this it should be non other than albion scallywag Tony Blair. Yes it is he who started the ASBO revolution. It was his invention and it was inavitably only a matter of time before other European countries would follow suit and set-up simmilar projects.

************************************

It is a great pleasure to see you try and squirm your way out of this one. I mean, your idol, upon whom you base the whole essence of your being judging by your handle, has apparently gone a bit bonkers. Now, where does that leave you?

Ok, so Blair is to blame for this eh? Nice one. I think I'll blame Napoleon. Come to think of it, blaming Napoleon might actually make more sense than blaming Blair. But still precious little sense.

In any case, as the loyal follower of Verdonk that you are, you will of course be expected to contribute to this forum solely in Dutch. Welterusten!
flippo
January 22, 2006 5:14:43 AM CET

Quote:

I have often felt uncomfortable speaking to my 11 year old daughter in English in public, we have been sneered at, and got dirty looks etc...not life threatening, but I just speak Dutch outside now ; it's easier!

************************************

Perhaps. Should the sneering and dirty looks be encouraged by government officials, do you think?
flippo
January 22, 2006 5:32:33 AM CET

A funny protest from the Jonge Democraten (young D66'ers):

"Jonge Democraat dient klacht in tegen Verdonk

Jeroen Adema heeft een klacht ingediend tegen Minister Verdonk van integratie bij het meldpunt discriminatie. De 27-jarige Jonge Democraat van Duitse afkomst voelt zich gediscrimineerd door de oproep om louter Nederlands te spreken op straat.

'Integration ist keine Ausgrenzung,' aldus Adema. 'Frau Verdonk hat nicht das Recht mir die Anwendung der deutschen Sprache im öffentlichen Raum zu verbieten'. De Jonge Democraten steunen Adema in zijn aanklacht."

(http://www.jongedemocraten.nl/index.php?id=1465 )

I won't bother translating the Dutch as you are all expected to read only Dutch from now on (ja, vooral jij, Viva Verdonk!). Maar als er vraag naar is, dan wil ik dat Duits wel voor jullie naar het Nederlands vertalen, hoor...
sulagoetjes_hotmail_com
January 22, 2006 8:09:08 AM CET
sulagoetjes_hotmail_com
January 22, 2006 8:18:19 AM CET

DEN HAAG - Minister Rita Verdonk van Integratie is begonnen met een peperdure campagne om de integratie te verbeteren. Allochtone rolmodellen, door de minister gevraagd om mee te werken, zijn negatief.

Bij muziekzender MTV, op internetsites voor jongeren en bij popconcerten, overal duikt het teken op: de mysterieuze &. Het teken staat symbool voor een tien miljoen euro kostende campagne van minister Verdonk om de integratie te bevorderen. T-shirts met de & moeten collector's items worden. Ze zijn alleen te verdienen door iemand die via www.en.nl 'een goed &-voorbeeld' weet op te geven. Zo is er op de site een blanke borstkas te zien met daarop de tatoeage 'Rashida' en is er een foto van een zwarte vrouw die een gouden ketting met de naam Tjeerd draagt. In een filmpje vertellen de multiculturele medewerkers van een supermarkt over hun gemeenschappelijke uitjes. Allemaal voorbeelden van geslaagde integratie, volgens de site.

Mohammed Benzakour, publicist van Marokkaanse afkomst, kreeg een brief die door de minister persoonlijk was ondertekend. Verdonk wilde graag dat Benzakour zou meewerken als ambassadeur. ''Ik moest in filmpjes op tv de lieve vrede gaan prediken.''

De schrijver heeft bedankt voor de eer. ''Ik wil me niet voor het karretje laten spannen van een minister in wie ik absoluut niet geloof,'' zegt Benzakour. ''Zo'n campagne draagt niets bij. Die potsierlijke clipjes op MTV zijn volstrekt onbegrijpelijk. Je hoort een draaiorgel en Marokkaanse muziek en als het afgelopen is, heb je geen idee waar het over gaat. Het is weggegooid geld.'' Eerder weigerde ook cabaretier Najib Amhali medewerking te verlenen.

Ambassadeurs die wel hebben toegezegd, zijn ex-tennisser Richard Kraijcek, de band Di-rect en de rappers Ali B. en Brace. Als het aan Benzakour ligt, blijft het daar bij. ''Ik roep op tot een boycot. Het is beter dat die tien miljoen euro worden gebruikt voor banen of een paar voetbalveldjes.''

© Het Parool, 21-01-2006

http://www.parool.nl/nieuws/2006/JAN/21/bin1.html
deek
January 22, 2006 9:43:52 AM CET

Quote:

Quote:

I have often felt uncomfortable speaking to my 11 year old daughter in English in public, we have been sneered at, and got dirty looks etc...not life threatening, but I just speak Dutch outside now ; it's easier!

************************************

Perhaps. Should the sneering and dirty looks be encouraged by government officials, do you think?

************************************

Unfortunately not only is it encouraged, but it's swiftly being sanctioned as a new sport. Being loyal to the fatherland and all that.
beebs
January 22, 2006 12:16:58 PM CET

So...let me get this straight...

Tourists are to shut up in the streets. (imagine how quiet Amsterdam would become?)

If you're here for work or whatever, you are to shut up as soon as you step off the plane at Schiphol (Blimey, what are they going to do with the airport announcements? The train announcements? How are you going to answer questions at customs?).

This is just not workable. And I won't be surprised if one day, I'm going to go into a store or somewhere, say, "I'm sorry, I don't speak Dutch yet..." and instead of smiles and service, I'm going to be ignored, turned away or sworn at. This woman just has too many fans in this country; she creates the crises just by opening her mouth and stirring the pot...

I showed this thread to my Dutchie...I'm trying to get him to contribute because between him and Flippo, intelligent discussion and debate between expats and reasonable Dutch people would be facilitated, a bridge which I think is so necessary lately...But he's so pissed at the government right now, I think he fears he wouldn't sound very reasonable at all at this moment! But he asked me to pass on his comments, namely:

1) This is only further proof that Verdonk is a fascist, and

2) If enforced (and publicized in the international media), it will totally destroy the tourism industry. Especially in Amsterdam.

Not to mention the economy...how many skilled expats will want to work here or bring their families over?

Blimey, this forum would go down the poop-shoot. No expats, no advertisers, no forum.
ignoramus
January 22, 2006 12:54:30 PM CET

Unfortunately, this initiative, if it is indeed implemented, will be an oficially sanctioned approval to start harrassing allochtonen in the streets. Flippo is right, this will be left to individuals to enforce. The hordes of "Jij moet Nederlands spreken" will be used to excuse violence and more often than not, physical agression towards foreigners. Imagine if the Lonsdale youth suddenly found a licit, nee... legal way to pester foreigners in the street. And with the sheep like behaviour encouraged by institutions here, something tells me the initiative will spread like a virus.

Come to think of it, with these statements from a minister,they don't even need to create a policy. All they need to do is tell people that it is OK to be vigilant in the streets and enforce use of the Dutch language. With so many Dutch keen on controlling others, they do not really need a law. They just need to create the right atmosphere and disposition.
clickit
January 22, 2006 1:10:42 PM CET

Quote:

So...let me get this straight...

Tourists are to shut up in the streets. (imagine how quiet Amsterdam would become?)

If you're here for work or whatever, you are to shut up as soon as you step off the plane at Schiphol (Blimey, what are they going to do with the airport announcements? The train announcements? How are you going to answer questions at customs?).

This is just not workable. And I won't be surprised if one day, I'm going to go into a store or somewhere, say, "I'm sorry, I don't speak Dutch yet..." and instead of smiles and service, I'm going to be ignored, turned away or sworn at. This woman just has too many fans in this country; she creates the crises just by opening her mouth and stirring the pot...

I showed this thread to my Dutchie...I'm trying to get him to contribute because between him and Flippo, intelligent discussion and debate between expats and reasonable Dutch people would be facilitated, a bridge which I think is so necessary lately...But he's so pissed at the government right now, I think he fears he wouldn't sound very reasonable at all at this moment! But he asked me to pass on his comments, namely:

1) This is only further proof that Verdonk is a fascist, and

2) If enforced (and publicized in the international media), it will totally destroy the tourism industry. Especially in Amsterdam.

Not to mention the economy...how many skilled expats will want to work here or bring their families over?

Blimey, this forum would go down the poop-shoot. No expats, no advertisers, no forum.

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beebs, my dutchie felt the same. He wa almost speechless at this one, and feeling very powerless to do anything about it.
clickit
January 22, 2006 1:21:18 PM CET

Quote:

Unfortunately, this initiative, if it is indeed implemented, will be an oficially sanctioned approval to start harrassing allochtonen in the streets. Flippo is right, this will be left to individuals to enforce. The hordes of "Jij moet Nederlands spreken" will be used to excuse violence and more often than not, physical agression towards foreigners. Imagine if the Lonsdale youth suddenly found a licit, nee... legal way to pester foreigners in the street. And with the sheep like behaviour encouraged by institutions here, something tells me the initiative will spread like a virus.

Come to think of it, with these statements from a minister,they don't even need to create a policy. All they need to do is tell people that it is OK to be vigilant in the streets and enforce use of the Dutch language. With so many Dutch keen on controlling others, they do not really need a law. They just need to create the right atmosphere and disposition.

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sad but true, they wont even need an 'official code' anyway because this is a damn clear message that 'we will not tolerate difference'. It also makes it very clear that for at least a part of the population here I and my family are not welcome.

And just look at the NRC headlines:
http://www.nrc.nl/binnenland/

" Het rondtobben met de drop-outs" -jongeren in Rotterdam

" Gemeenten laks met naturalisaties"
-about the naturalisation ceremonies

" Rotterdam: spreek op straat Nederlands"

" AIVD ziet gevaar Lonsdalers groeien"
-‘Lonsdale-jongeren’ zijn steeds meer een gevaar voor de openbare orde

" Werkloosheid onder allochtone jongeren verdubbeld"

"Steun voor uitdelen boete door gemeente" -includes for people who dont clean up their dog poep, and also for youths hanging out on the street...

These headlines are all on one online page of the NRC Handelsblad. All these things are connected. How can Verdonk be so stupid not so see that she is further and further dividing this country by her irresponsible discrimination.

Even worse, they now want to dictate how we behave in our own homes :

"Burgemeester en wethouders van Rotterdam willen dat inwoners van de stad op straat Nederlands praten. Ook thuis zouden allochtone ouders hun kinderen grotendeels in het Nederlands" moeten opvoeden." (from the NRC article). I am glad I dont live in Rotterdam, however I see this will be applied all over the country.

Do you think Maxima will get any attention for bringing up bilingual children? What we need now is for her to come out in defence of our right to speak what language we want to our kids.

I guess next we will hear that the reason they want us all to speak dutch on the street is because otherwise how would they know we arent planning a terrorist act.