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Dutch bluntness

siptea
May 26, 2007 4:58:40 PM CEST

I try and try to be patient and remember that this is the Dutch way, they say things not always intended to hurt but they are just tactless. But it happens over and over and I get frustrated. I was telling the garden guy a story about a mate of mine and he immediately said "Is he American" because the chap liked convenience foods. I said no he is English, and the reason Americans need convenience foods is that they work very long hours unlike here. I know he was not trying to hurt my feelings, but I hate people generalising about my country when they know so little. The guy went on to say "Americans forget to live". Dude, I am from a place where you work long and hard as it is not so easy to get money from the gov't as it is here, and work is more valued there.

I do make judgments about the Dutch but at least I have lived here almost 5 years, this guy has never been to the states and knows nothing about it. I just get so sick of the Dutch saying Americans do this and Americans do that and they have never even VISITED let alone lived there!
kaw
May 26, 2007 5:38:04 PM CEST

(Siptea)
I try and try to be patient and remember that this is the Dutch way, they say things not always intended to hurt but they are just tactless. But it happens over and over and I get frustrated. I was telling the garden guy a story about a mate of mine and he immediately said "Is he American" because the chap liked convenience foods. I said no he is English, and the reason Americans need convenience foods is that they work very long hours unlike here. I know he was not trying to hurt my feelings, but I hate people generalising about my country when they know so little. The guy went on to say "Americans forget to live". Dude, I am from a place where you work long and hard as it is not so easy to get money from the gov't as it is here, and work is more valued there.

I do make judgments about the Dutch but at least I have lived here almost 5 years, this guy has never been to the states and knows nothing about it. I just get so sick of the Dutch saying Americans do this and Americans do that and they have never even VISITED let alone lived there!

I have the same sort of responses from my Dutch friends about Americans. And I might add, none them have ever set foot on USA soil, let alone lived there. It makes me angry too, but I fear this is the opinion of many Europeans. They just seem to base their views on what they watch on TV, or read in the media.

I was born/raised in the UK, but had the most fantastic experience living in the States for three years and discovered that although the working hours can be long, my American friends really knew how to live life to the full in their social time. They were some of the most welcoming and kindest people I have ever met, and never had a bad word against other nationalities.
siptea
May 26, 2007 5:41:59 PM CEST

(kaw)
(Siptea)
I try and try to be patient and remember that this is the Dutch way, they say things not always intended to hurt but they are just tactless. But it happens over and over and I get frustrated. I was telling the garden guy a story about a mate of mine and he immediately said "Is he American" because the chap liked convenience foods. I said no he is English, and the reason Americans need convenience foods is that they work very long hours unlike here. I know he was not trying to hurt my feelings, but I hate people generalising about my country when they know so little. The guy went on to say "Americans forget to live". Dude, I am from a place where you work long and hard as it is not so easy to get money from the gov't as it is here, and work is more valued there.

I do make judgments about the Dutch but at least I have lived here almost 5 years, this guy has never been to the states and knows nothing about it. I just get so sick of the Dutch saying Americans do this and Americans do that and they have never even VISITED let alone lived there!

I have the same sort of responses from my Dutch friends about Americans. And I might add, none them have ever set foot on USA soil, let alone lived there. It makes me angry too, but I fear this is the opinion of many Europeans. They just seem to base their views on what they watch on TV, or read in the media.

I was born/raised in the UK, but had the most fantastic experience living in the States for three years and discovered that although the working hours can be long, my American friends really knew how to live life to the full in their social time. They were some of the most welcoming and kindest people I have ever met, and never had a bad word against other nationalities.

I really miss that- the feeling of warmth and welcoming. I have put in the effort to make Dutch girlfriends here, inviting them to things and remembering birthdays etc. and I never got any responses.

Glad that you saw that Americans do know how to live!

I lived in the Uk for awhile as well and found English people friendly- not stuffy and closed as they are sometimes stereotyped. They invited me to drinks and were always chatty and upbeat. So it is not just the fact that I am an Expat here that makes them standoffish and cold.
siptea
May 26, 2007 5:48:36 PM CEST

(john q. public)
(Siptea)
The guy went on to say "Americans forget to live". Dude, I am from a place where you work long and hard as it is not so easy to get money from the gov't as it is here

Let's not forget: governments don't create wealth; they merely redistribute it as they see fit.

Folks in NL seem to have no qualms whatsoever about being on the teat. :?

That's what gets me- they have no issues with their lack of interest in work- you would think that without honest work you would have poor self esteem. I saw the painters on our street loafing around with the neighbors- drinking coffee and smoking on the company paycheck. I asked my Dutchie why the boss allows this and does not fire them and he said the new workers would just do the same thing. Sad!
spoton
May 26, 2007 8:41:07 PM CEST

Americans are generally nice and friendly people, most people in europe dont see it. They have to visit America first and see it with their own eyes. I always had an ok feeling about the americans. However my trip to america didnt match my expectations. They were actually nicer than I thought they would be
Although everything looked exactly as on tv, I was still surprised to see the huge number of latino's in and around LA, the chinese in SanFran, blacks in Oakland and Compton(LA). You dont really get that picture watching tv. My american boss told me that america has 4-5 regions and that they are very different from each other.

and the reason Americans need convenience foods is that they work very long hours unlike here.

I dont think working long hours has anything to do with it. They dont need to. Its just a very handy way to get food quickly you just take out a sandwich or a burger. I've worked for a few american companies and although the hours were long they werent always work. We had 2 hour lunch breaks, went out to play tennis during the day, and played mini golf in the office, etc. Take for instance the french they do all of the work in a 35 hours(week).

Although Bush' administration is perceived as being not very competent (to put it mildly) by many europeans, the average dutch person has still a very positve view on america and americans (better than other europeans). I've heard the irish complain more about Bush than the dutch.
siptea
May 26, 2007 8:52:04 PM CEST

(Spot-on)
Americans are generally nice and friendly people, most people in europe dont see it. They have to visit America first and see it with their own eyes. I always had an ok feeling about the americans. However my trip to america didnt match my expectations. They were actually nicer than I thought they would be
Although everything looked exactly as on tv, I was still surprised to see the huge number of latino's in and around LA, the chinese in SanFran, blacks in Oakland and Compton(LA). You dont really get that picture watching tv. My american boss told me that america has 4-5 regions and that they are very different from each other.

and the reason Americans need convenience foods is that they work very long hours unlike here.

I dont think working long hours has anything to do with it. They dont need to. Its just a very handy way to get food quickly you just take out a sandwich or a burger. I've worked for a few american companies and although the hours were long they werent always work. We had 2 hour lunch breaks, went out to play tennis during the day, and played mini golf in the office, etc. Take for instance the french they do all of the work in a 35 hours(week).

Although Bush' administration is perceived as being not very competent (to put it mildly) by many europeans, the average dutch person has still a very positve view on america and americans (better than other europeans). I've heard the irish complain more about Bush than the dutch.
camilla
May 26, 2007 9:41:17 PM CEST

Unfortunately, I think a lot of people judge America precisely on Bush's policies and actions in the international arena, and also from American cultural exports such as films. It's very easy to say "only in America :roll: " rather than taking the effort to find out more (the big eye-opener for me was doing a Masters in American Studies, during which I realised just how much I *don't* know about America. Very interesting).

For comparison's sake, how long is the average work work in the US?
siptea
May 26, 2007 10:02:41 PM CEST

(Camilla)
Unfortunately, I think a lot of people judge America precisely on Bush's policies and actions in the international arena, and also from American cultural exports such as films. It's very easy to say "only in America :roll: " rather than taking the effort to find out more (the big eye-opener for me was doing a Masters in American Studies, during which I realised just how much I *don't* know about America. Very interesting).

For comparison's sake, how long is the average work work in the US?

Most places if you are an office worker you'll work 9-10 hours and a half hour lunch break and two 10 minute breaks. If you are a manager or similiar you'll work 12-14 hours. Most folks will work 5 or 6 days.

I waitressed in college and worked 14 hour shifts 4 days a week plus went to school.

Whatever people think about the US it cannot be denied that they are a very powerful country and I hope the next admin is better.
spoton
May 26, 2007 10:11:10 PM CEST

But Americans and America and Bush are separate things- I didn't vote for Bush and do not agree with much of what he does. I hope that Europeans do not judge America by Bush. He is only one foolish man

. Yup its too bad, just one man, but he happens to be the man who represents 300 million americans. Unfortunately many europeans have problems seperating the two.

Who would be the best next president? and why?:
Obama, Hillary or...maybe Gore?.........or?

I waitressed in college and worked 14 hour shifts 4 days a week plus went to school.

Muchos respect!
siptea
May 26, 2007 10:19:50 PM CEST

I waitressed in college and worked 14 hour shifts 4 days a week plus went to school. Muchos respect!

Gracias!

I don't know who the next Prez will be but he/she has gotta be better than Bush!
emeraldlady1968
- 1 posts
May 26, 2007 11:31:04 PM CEST

(Siptea)
(Camilla)
Unfortunately, I think a lot of people judge America precisely on Bush's policies and actions in the international arena, and also from American cultural exports such as films. It's very easy to say "only in America :roll: " rather than taking the effort to find out more (the big eye-opener for me was doing a Masters in American Studies, during which I realised just how much I *don't* know about America. Very interesting).

For comparison's sake, how long is the average work work in the US?

Most places if you are an office worker you'll work 9-10 hours and a half hour lunch break and two 10 minute breaks. If you are a manager or similiar you'll work 12-14 hours. Most folks will work 5 or 6 days.

I waitressed in college and worked 14 hour shifts 4 days a week plus went to school.

Whatever people think about the US it cannot be denied that they are a very powerful country and I hope the next admin is better.

siptea my hubby is in management here in the netherlands
he works on average 12 hours per day 6 days a week
he gets 30 mins for lunch and 2 10 min breaks
as such working for a swedish company he is only guaranteed 3 national holidays per year = christmas day new years day and easter monday
the rest are not recognised as they are dutch holidays not swedish
so thats a bit of a bummer but hey i am used to it now
not sure about not getting boxing day off though grr!!!
due to the factory just being newly opened work is manic at times
and there was months there he was working 7 days per week and normally 16+ hours per day
thankfully thats subsided and like i say its 12 per day now
so i think it depends on the company here in the netherlands how long you have to work
but on average the dutch wont work any longer than a 40 hour week
emerald
ouloveit1
- 4309 posts
May 27, 2007 1:39:52 AM CEST

(kaw)
(Siptea)
I try and try to be patient and remember that this is the Dutch way, they say things not always intended to hurt but they are just tactless. But it happens over and over and I get frustrated. I was telling the garden guy a story about a mate of mine and he immediately said "Is he American" because the chap liked convenience foods. I said no he is English, and the reason Americans need convenience foods is that they work very long hours unlike here. I know he was not trying to hurt my feelings, but I hate people generalising about my country when they know so little. The guy went on to say "Americans forget to live". Dude, I am from a place where you work long and hard as it is not so easy to get money from the gov't as it is here, and work is more valued there.

I do make judgments about the Dutch but at least I have lived here almost 5 years, this guy has never been to the states and knows nothing about it. I just get so sick of the Dutch saying Americans do this and Americans do that and they have never even VISITED let alone lived there!

I have the same sort of responses from my Dutch friends about Americans. And I might add, none them have ever set foot on USA soil, let alone lived there. It makes me angry too, but I fear this is the opinion of many Europeans. They just seem to base their views on what they watch on TV, or read in the media.

I was born/raised in the UK, but had the most fantastic experience living in the States for three years and discovered that although the working hours can be long, my American friends really knew how to live life to the full in their social time. They were some of the most welcoming and kindest people I have ever met, and never had a bad word against other nationalities.

Yes, but Americans don't talk badly about other nationalities .... Europeans talk badly about other nationalties

Americans talk about ... other Americans.

I remember a Dutch colleague asking me if Americans dislike Germans too. Ummm I just looked at him. :| That particular thought would have never entered my mind in a million years.

If a German guy lived in the States ... he would just be another White guy. So what would be the problem?

Why? Because Europeans are 'nationalists' meaning your nationality is an issue (and sometimes that nationality happens to correspond with another race). Whereas the Americans .. well the Americans are 'racists' - meaning the color of your skin is the issue (and that sometime coincides with another nationality).

This is a huge cultural distinction that most Europeans don't 'get'.
spoton
May 27, 2007 2:08:31 AM CEST

remember a Dutch colleague asking me if Americans dislike Germans too. Ummm I just looked at him. That particular thought would have never entered my mind in a million years.

Maybe his/her whole family has been put on a transport to a concentration camp to Nazi Germany where his/her family was tortured and later on gassed by the Nazi's :idea:
stone
- 2517 posts
May 27, 2007 11:11:12 AM CEST

I'm not American, but I've noticed this too. Many of them have strange prejudices about the US.

Those who have been there generally know better.

But life in the US can seem different to the Dutch. Some who go there cannot get over the friendliness of the people. They don't know what to make of it. Some see American friendliness as being shallow or phony.

But this isn't just a US thing because they can say this about the British too. It's a reflection of the Dutch perception of themselves as being direct and to the point. And if you're direct and to the point, you can apparently dispense with niceties like politeness and friendliness.

I was talking last week to a Dutch guy who went on a motorcycle trip through the southwestern US. He was still talking about the problems he had with smoking. And he also couldn't see why he couldn't keep an open bottle of licquor in his kit. Still he enjoyed it and loved the place.
sulagoetjes_hotmail_com
May 27, 2007 11:38:00 AM CEST

quote ouloveit:

Why? Because Europeans are 'nationalists' meaning your nationality is an issue (and sometimes that nationality happens to correspond with another race). Whereas the Americans .. well the Americans are 'racists' - meaning the color of your skin is the issue (and that sometime coincides with another nationality).
****************
I agree. However, personally I would replace your word "nationality" by "nation". "Nationality" implies a country, like in Scotland and Scots.
My "nation" does right to countries like Spain for example with various ethnicities, each speaking their own language: Castilians, Catalans, Basques, Andalusians, Galicians, etc.
siptea
May 28, 2007 3:38:23 PM CEST

It's funny to me that per this thread some Europeans see Americans as being like Bush, yet people don't see Dutch folks like Balkende or Brits like Tony Blair.

I was just reading a book about the French and they see Americans as too casual and wearing sneakers all the time and carrying backpacks, and the Brits as lewd, cursing drunkards.
siptea
May 28, 2007 3:47:27 PM CEST

(emeraldlady1968)
(Siptea)
(Camilla)
Unfortunately, I think a lot of people judge America precisely on Bush's policies and actions in the international arena, and also from American cultural exports such as films. It's very easy to say "only in America :roll: " rather than taking the effort to find out more (the big eye-opener for me was doing a Masters in American Studies, during which I realised just how much I *don't* know about America. Very interesting).

For comparison's sake, how long is the average work work in the US?

Most places if you are an office worker you'll work 9-10 hours and a half hour lunch break and two 10 minute breaks. If you are a manager or similiar you'll work 12-14 hours. Most folks will work 5 or 6 days.

I waitressed in college and worked 14 hour shifts 4 days a week plus went to school.

Whatever people think about the US it cannot be denied that they are a very powerful country and I hope the next admin is better.

siptea my hubby is in management here in the netherlands
he works on average 12 hours per day 6 days a week
he gets 30 mins for lunch and 2 10 min breaks
as such working for a swedish company he is only guaranteed 3 national holidays per year = christmas day new years day and easter monday
the rest are not recognised as they are dutch holidays not swedish
so thats a bit of a bummer but hey i am used to it now
not sure about not getting boxing day off though grr!!!
due to the factory just being newly opened work is manic at times
and there was months there he was working 7 days per week and normally 16+ hours per day
thankfully thats subsided and like i say its 12 per day now
so i think it depends on the company here in the netherlands how long you have to work
but on average the dutch wont work any longer than a 40 hour week
emerald

Your man sure does work long hours, poor chap, it'd be hard to find Dutch folks willing to take that load
emeraldlady1968
- 1 posts
May 28, 2007 4:08:46 PM CEST

(Siptea)
(emeraldlady1968)
(Siptea)
(Camilla)
Unfortunately, I think a lot of people judge America precisely on Bush's policies and actions in the international arena, and also from American cultural exports such as films. It's very easy to say "only in America :roll: " rather than taking the effort to find out more (the big eye-opener for me was doing a Masters in American Studies, during which I realised just how much I *don't* know about America. Very interesting).

For comparison's sake, how long is the average work work in the US?

Most places if you are an office worker you'll work 9-10 hours and a half hour lunch break and two 10 minute breaks. If you are a manager or similiar you'll work 12-14 hours. Most folks will work 5 or 6 days.

I waitressed in college and worked 14 hour shifts 4 days a week plus went to school.

Whatever people think about the US it cannot be denied that they are a very powerful country and I hope the next admin is better.

siptea my hubby is in management here in the netherlands
he works on average 12 hours per day 6 days a week
he gets 30 mins for lunch and 2 10 min breaks
as such working for a swedish company he is only guaranteed 3 national holidays per year = christmas day new years day and easter monday
the rest are not recognised as they are dutch holidays not swedish
so thats a bit of a bummer but hey i am used to it now
not sure about not getting boxing day off though grr!!!
due to the factory just being newly opened work is manic at times
and there was months there he was working 7 days per week and normally 16+ hours per day
thankfully thats subsided and like i say its 12 per day now
so i think it depends on the company here in the netherlands how long you have to work
but on average the dutch wont work any longer than a 40 hour week
emerald

Your man sure does work long hours, poor chap, it'd be hard to find Dutch folks willing to take that load

hehe the more he works the money ive got to spend lmao!!!
still im undecided about this swedish company though
seems they expect all to work whatever hours are necessary - doesnt matter how long or when
the hours he does now he sees the kids sunday night and thats it til friday night
they are all into the workers not just working but being a big happy family unit and as such organise group get togethers and weekends away = all in the name of unity and team spirit
but all these gatherings and nights out etc dont include the partners = we are not recognised at all
even if its a holiday celebration
im a bit miffed at that one
and with hubby being part of management hes been told he HAS to go to all functions and weekends away it doesnt matter what else he has planned at home theres no getting out of all
and as i said to hubby well they might be into family unity in the workplace but what the hell use is that if it means the breakup of your real family at home
im very lucky as is hubby that we have a strong relationship other wise id have packed his bags long ago hahaha
joking aside i know some in his work that it has caused major problems at home
siptea
May 28, 2007 5:15:45 PM CEST

Your man sure does work long hours, poor chap, it'd be hard to find Dutch folks willing to take that load

hehe the more he works the money ive got to spend lmao!!!
still im undecided about this swedish company though
seems they expect all to work whatever hours are necessary - doesnt matter how long or when
the hours he does now he sees the kids sunday night and thats it til friday night
they are all into the workers not just working but being a big happy family unit and as such organise group get togethers and weekends away = all in the name of unity and team spirit
but all these gatherings and nights out etc dont include the partners = we are not recognised at all
even if its a holiday celebration
im a bit miffed at that one
and with hubby being part of management hes been told he HAS to go to all functions and weekends away it doesnt matter what else he has planned at home theres no getting out of all
and as i said to hubby well they might be into family unity in the workplace but what the hell use is that if it means the breakup of your real family at home
im very lucky as is hubby that we have a strong relationship other wise id have packed his bags long ago hahaha
joking aside i know some in his work that it has caused major problems at home

I can understand sometimes a person has to long work hours for pay but they expect him to go to functions that is not really fair, it should be optional
emeraldlady1968
- 1 posts
May 28, 2007 5:39:21 PM CEST

Your man sure does work long hours, poor chap, it'd be hard to find Dutch folks willing to take that load

hehe the more he works the money ive got to spend lmao!!!
still im undecided about this swedish company though
seems they expect all to work whatever hours are necessary - doesnt matter how long or when
the hours he does now he sees the kids sunday night and thats it til friday night
they are all into the workers not just working but being a big happy family unit and as such organise group get togethers and weekends away = all in the name of unity and team spirit
but all these gatherings and nights out etc dont include the partners = we are not recognised at all
even if its a holiday celebration
im a bit miffed at that one
and with hubby being part of management hes been told he HAS to go to all functions and weekends away it doesnt matter what else he has planned at home theres no getting out of all
and as i said to hubby well they might be into family unity in the workplace but what the hell use is that if it means the breakup of your real family at home
im very lucky as is hubby that we have a strong relationship other wise id have packed his bags long ago hahaha
joking aside i know some in his work that it has caused major problems at home

I can understand sometimes a person has to long work hours for pay but they expect him to go to functions that is not really fair, it should be optional
he had no option in anything they bloody plan and im left at home to babysit as usual!!!
imitationofdutch
May 28, 2007 6:01:58 PM CEST

(emeraldlady1968)
hehe the more he works the money ive got to spend lmao!!!
still im undecided about this swedish company though
seems they expect all to work whatever hours are necessary - doesnt matter how long or when
the hours he does now he sees the kids sunday night and thats it til friday night
they are all into the workers not just working but being a big happy family unit and as such organise group get togethers and weekends away = all in the name of unity and team spirit
but all these gatherings and nights out etc dont include the partners = we are not recognised at all
even if its a holiday celebration
im a bit miffed at that one
and with hubby being part of management hes been told he HAS to go to all functions and weekends away it doesnt matter what else he has planned at home theres no getting out of all
and as i said to hubby well they might be into family unity in the workplace but what the hell use is that if it means the breakup of your real family at home
im very lucky as is hubby that we have a strong relationship other wise id have packed his bags long ago hahaha
joking aside i know some in his work that it has caused major problems at home

funny, my married collegues having affairs keep using "weekend events" as an excuse not to spend time with their families...
emeraldlady1968
- 1 posts
May 28, 2007 6:22:27 PM CEST

(Imitation of Dutch)
(emeraldlady1968)

hehe the more he works the money ive got to spend lmao!!!
still im undecided about this swedish company though
seems they expect all to work whatever hours are necessary - doesnt matter how long or when
the hours he does now he sees the kids sunday night and thats it til friday night
they are all into the workers not just working but being a big happy family unit and as such organise group get togethers and weekends away = all in the name of unity and team spirit
but all these gatherings and nights out etc dont include the partners = we are not recognised at all
even if its a holiday celebration
im a bit miffed at that one
and with hubby being part of management hes been told he HAS to go to all functions and weekends away it doesnt matter what else he has planned at home theres no getting out of all
and as i said to hubby well they might be into family unity in the workplace but what the hell use is that if it means the breakup of your real family at home
im very lucky as is hubby that we have a strong relationship other wise id have packed his bags long ago hahaha
joking aside i know some in his work that it has caused major problems at home

funny, my married collegues having affairs keep using "weekend events" as an excuse not to spend time with their families...

i guess some would lol and probably get away with it
nijmegengirl
May 28, 2007 8:45:53 PM CEST

my fiancée works for an american company here in the netherlands and he's expected to work until the works done too. minimal holidays and they even phoned him once at 7 o'clock in the morning - on sunday! the poor bugger had to then sit in the living-room for hours working on the internet. he has a lot of international calls from asia and america and then he has to stay in late or go in early to take them (damn time-difference!).

they do stuff together at work too, not only organised work-do's such as a yearly outing and cookery workshops, but also family/partner events like barbecueing with kids and all in the summer and a christmas dinner. these are all not optional of course. just like my do's at work aren't optional either.

when it's the end of the quarter they all have to go in on saturday too - no extra pay for any of his overhours either. but hey, at least he's got a job! even though i would really prefer if he worked for a dutch company - the dutch are more humane and family-oriented.
camilla
May 29, 2007 12:28:48 AM CEST

Good gods :shock: I am very glad I work where I do! 9 hours a day (inclusive of half hour lunchbreak), and every second Monday off. It was basically the same in Australia too.
emeraldlady1968
- 1 posts
May 29, 2007 8:58:37 AM CEST

(Camilla)
Good gods :shock: I am very glad I work where I do! 9 hours a day (inclusive of half hour lunchbreak), and every second Monday off. It was basically the same in Australia too.

yeah i bet you are so glad camilla lol
when my hubby worked for a few dutch companies he usual worked 9 hours per day and maybe alittle overtime on a saturday but he had all is holidays free and could freely take time off